With all the conflict, imbalance, mudslinging and griefing posts around, I'm going to put my theory on current Lusternian conflict in simple words.

Celest: Untainted city
Magnagora: Tainted city
Serenwilde: Untainted commune
Glomdoring: Tainted commune

Simple enough. We find, or should find, natural enemies. Where it would be nice for (as an example) the Serenwilde to say "We hate everyone because you are either a city or tainted," this would leave us no ally in the Basin.

Instead a natural enimity has developed. Magnagora and Serenwilde seem as polar opposites, and Celest and Glomdoring. It is natural to form alliances against these opposites, with the help of whichever possible ally is more appealing at the time. Since Serenwilde put down Glom for so long, Glom naturally looks to Mag, and Serenwilde looks to Celest.

This replaces the former 3-state interaction in which the two smaller ganged up on the bigger, usually Celest and Serenwilde vs. Magnagora.

Discuss.

One factor which promotes the commune/city alliances that people seem to overlook is tradeskills. The cities need herbs and elixers, and the communes need enchantments.

Umm, cities can harvest herbs too...

Yeah I suppose they can, just I always think of them as using high magic. So nothing to say on elixers and enchantments then? Or do you think that's a non factor in pushing cities and communes together?

I always wondered why the Communes are not fighting off the Cities. I always here about Glom allying with Magnagora but I think that's bullcrap, considering they -should- be planning to destroy civilizations that culminate in cities of stone.

Technically, with this set up, everyone should be fighting everyone. Cities are supposed to be just as much a threat to Communes as the "taint" is, if not more.

I don't think the Glomdoring really has a really good reason to hate the cities. They're Tainted, and the reason Serenwilde is "supposed" to hate Celest is for the way they released the Taint, and the way they always wanted more power and so on which is how they got into this state. Well, Glomdoring doesn't see the Taint as a bad thing, does it? Celest did it a favour in theory. Magnagora is, well, an Empire, but there's nothing really wrong with that either. It's not like the forests are stereotypical like from other games and just hate cities because...they have buildings. They certainly don't mind villages a whole lot. And they even have their OWN buildings.

I have to agree with Nejii. There is nothing in the histories or else where that indicates why a Commune should hate a City. In fact if you read the histories, I seem to draw that they seemed to ingore each other or non-violently protested each other. There is nothing about taking violet action simply on the basis that X-place is a city. Communes may have a underlying disdain for their way of life, but that's about it.

However, Serenwilde does oppose taint. In fact, the first real person to have any success in beating back the taint was Ellindel Treeheart, the first Moondancer, who gave the Fae physical form and cured them of it. It seems only fitting that as a result, Serenwilde would despise Magnagora.

I would also like to add that the "reason" Serenwilde should hate Celest doesn't hold water. Whereas it is true that the citizens of Old Celest released the Taint, it was not the work of the citizens of New Celest. I have always found it a rather silly reason to say, "You're great great great great grandfather whom probably looks nothing like you because someone in your family probably reincarnated at one point... was a bad, taint releasing person. His sins are your sins. Die."

Well, I didn't want to speak about Serenwilde there, since yes, I agree with Narsrim, but it could also be said that Celest has the same ATTITUDE that brought the Taint upon us all, and they don't really regret not listening to the spirits.

Still, it doesn't really hold much water, but Glomdoring hasn't ANY good reason I've heard of yet.

Err. Glomdoring has more reason to hate the cities than Serenwilde.

The Cities released the Taint, bad! versus The cities released the Taint, which destroyed our Tree, corrupted poor Raven, and seriously hurt Mother Night! It took Viravain, one of (if not the only) Seventh Circle Elders to fix what they did! DAMN YOU!

Hmm. Which sounds more anti-city? Dunno. And, even if that doesn't cut it for you (IE: You hate Viravain/enjoy the Taint, but LIKE Rowena..) Rowena hates 'em. There ya go. Hate away.

Wait, what? That's Gloriana, not Glomdoring. Glomdoring doesn't mind Raven and Night being as they are. In fact, the way I've heard it explained, they see the Taint as irrelevant. I guess there is the cloud-blowing-tree-killing thing, though. (And they had Viravain as a patron for ages.)
And even then, it's their great ancestors they'd be caring about, not really the current ones so much. It just seems kinda weak.

Step away from the crack. Glomdoring != Glorianna

First and foremost, Viravain doesn't see the Taint. In fact, her minions don't either: Gwynevere and Jasper, for example. Furthermore, the taint (Kethuru) is actually what ended up indirectly empowering the dead nexus and thus it works again. As far as I can see it, Glomdoring has the "we either love it or are too demented to see it" stance. In either case, there is nothing that implies there should be any hostility towards Magnagora.

Furthermore, history may be a good 'teacher,' but the average person places far more impact on the now. Magnagora has helped Glomdoring. Wtf would say no when you need it?

However, Glomdoring -does- have a reason to at least frown upon the cities with Shikari in charge now, since he dislikes the half-formed, and the cities pretty much worship them. (and, if they don't, they're worshipping Vernal Gods, such as Urlach, which should annoy any respecting Elder just as much)

At least its something.

Well, we have somethingS all over the place, they're just not really good enough that certain people who want to see Serenwilde hate Celest (FOR EXAMPLE) can call everyone out on it.

Not quite. I'll leave it to you to ask Shikari in-game about.

It most certainly does give reason why the Communes, at least Serenwilde, should hate Cities in the histories. The cities ignored all the warnings of the Communes, and Farella herself raved at the end about how Celest and Civilisation would never be trusted again.







What more do you need to show you that the Communes, again at least Serenwilde, should be against the cities? The taint is a product of the Cities. So to hate the symptom but not the cause is blinding yourself to the disease.

I don't buy that though. These people are actively working AGAINST the disease. It's not like they are glad they did it. It was an accident. It seems one fanatical Moondancer hated Celest, at the time, for what they did, but for us several hundred years to still hate Celest for something they've been trying to repair since is a bit weird.

And I don't know why Glomdoring would really care, it's not like they even think the Taint IS a disease.

I am not saying you should stick so harshly to history that you hate celest still. Not as a whole. I am saying that the Histories -do- show why Serenwilde should hate them. It isn't just a case that they hate the taint. It is a case that they hate the cause of the Taint. They recognised the threat, and treated the symptom. We recognise the symptom and ignore the threat.

Also it was not -one- fanatical Moondancer. It was the entire moon coven. The only reason that the Moondancers have no policy against Cities on the whole currently is because Merloch was pro-Celest. He also chose to ignore the section of History where Cities are hated and ride out the part of history where Taint was the problem. In other words he was Pro-Celest. Now you can be Pro-Celest if you want to be I am not disputing that, but don't try and use the histories as your argument for why you are, because if you want to follow history we should be forestal savages bent on a primary focus of seeing all cities brought to the ground and natural terrain encouraged to overgrow them.

Double Edit::

I will even go so far as to turn your statement around and point out.. It was -one- pro-celest person who wanted to help Celest. No other person from the Communes, in the histories, is stated as trying/wanting to help them.

However, Celest has proven itself to still be blinded by their own ambitions. The Fae incident, as an example, proves that they don't care about the greater spirits if it means their own ass.

Farella was -not- ONE fanatical Moondancer. She was the High Priestess. Even your CURRENT High Priestess considers herself the "Scion of Farella", meaning she agrees with her opinions and the way she is portrayed in the histories.

I guess you could say that it's a POSSIBLE line of thought to take, but at least for me I consider Celest the ORIGINATOR, but not the threat. (I.e, they're not threatening us now.) Nejii considers Celest kinda like lost children. Pretty damn dangerous children, and pretty stubborn, but if you bring 'em up right and make sure they stick as closely to the Spirits as possible, they won't go too far wrong, will stay on your side, and can do the whole "cleansing of the waters" stuff they're meant to do. Of course, the moment they start stupidly trying to convert Fae to little angel-lings (nothing particularly wrong with a Supernal or an angel, as long as it isn't converted from an even better being - and hell, even Lady Isune told him it was okay to convert angel bodies back to Fae as long as he didn't kill 'em) he'll have to do something about it, but they're...not. They're not doing anything wrong, they're still trying to cleanse the Taint they caused, and so on.

Obviously Nejii's view isn't going to be the only one, but right now I think it makes at least as much sense to think of things that way as to have a centuries old grudge they haven't really carried on to deserving, so the idea that "Serenwilde should hate the cities" seems a little off when it's worded that way.

Ahh. C'mon, she's just another fanatical Moondancer too.