Jadryga2005-08-04 10:37:58
That novice skill would have severe limitations, since time is of the essence as far as battle goes, and especially when it comes to breaking active demesnes. Realitycheck is high in discernment yes, but it's instant.
Think of it as parallel to focus body. At a very low level, it still unparalyzes you, but at a much, much slower rate. The more lessons you put in, the faster you focus. So this is rather like that, but different.
Think of it as parallel to focus body. At a very low level, it still unparalyzes you, but at a much, much slower rate. The more lessons you put in, the faster you focus. So this is rather like that, but different.
Soll2005-08-04 10:44:27
You can't make realitycheck take five seconds, else there's really no much chance of doing it before being summoned. The difference is, Hartstone by themselves can't summon, so it can take a bit longer to remove their demesne. The moment you step in a Hartstone demesne you're not at horrible risk of being summoned. You have a few seconds to play with, at the least. As soon as you step in a Mage demesne, poof, yer summoned and being pounded on. 
That's why I think Druids have some advantage with their saplings, if only in their own forests.
That's why I think Druids have some advantage with their saplings, if only in their own forests.Jadryga2005-08-04 10:47:41
Chop chop. The saplings still go down to anyone with chop in environment and an axe.
Ignite would probably take the same amount of time, maybe a bit longer, cept you don't need an axe.
AND we'd be able to work forest fires into our RP.
Woot for Seren RP!
Ignite would probably take the same amount of time, maybe a bit longer, cept you don't need an axe.
AND we'd be able to work forest fires into our RP.
Woot for Seren RP!
Shiri2005-08-04 10:49:54
If anything, I'd -prefer- someone to ignite rather than chop, because it means that even in a team it's slower than just forcing immediately.
Ashteru2005-08-04 11:35:53
Hrm you know, we could add something for Geomancers too, for example. (Taken because I never fought an Aquamancer before). How about we could throw something like lighters or so in one room with that thing that makes you hungry? It could, well, explode and set everyone in it on fire. Could be used for and against Geomancers and would a random funny bit.
Gregori2005-08-04 11:44:02
You all are missing the forest for the trees here.
HA! I just wanted to say that...
Anyways, Trees give lumber! Artisans need lumber! We have been complaining to the Admins to give us more way to produce -LUMBER- and now you are all complaining because they killed two birds with one stone and you don't want the first bird killed.
TOUGH!
EDIT: Plus in forestcast forest rooms saplings are killed with one chop, like it takes one reality check. So truth be told we gained an advantage in 80 rooms of the entire game. You can't use Serenwilde and Glomdoring as examples, we -always- had advantage there just from being able to flow to you with guards if we wanted. The demense advantage is not really a giant leap in that area. Faethorn is the only place that we gained a real advantage. OMG! Mages might have to decide to stay out of Commune affairs, or learn chop!
HA! I just wanted to say that...
Anyways, Trees give lumber! Artisans need lumber! We have been complaining to the Admins to give us more way to produce -LUMBER- and now you are all complaining because they killed two birds with one stone and you don't want the first bird killed.
TOUGH!
EDIT: Plus in forestcast forest rooms saplings are killed with one chop, like it takes one reality check. So truth be told we gained an advantage in 80 rooms of the entire game. You can't use Serenwilde and Glomdoring as examples, we -always- had advantage there just from being able to flow to you with guards if we wanted. The demense advantage is not really a giant leap in that area. Faethorn is the only place that we gained a real advantage. OMG! Mages might have to decide to stay out of Commune affairs, or learn chop!
Aleron2005-08-04 12:12:26
If it takes one chop outside of Faethorn, I really don't see why ignite should work. Its a noob skill and that -completely- blows the balance. Unless something in the basic Nature skillset ruins Terrain. Else its just not even.
Ignite is a newbie skill, and this immediately rules it out as getting to have that much power. The fact is, 2 seconds isn't much at all, especially since the equilibrium time on ignite is probaby 2+ seconds, meaning you wouldn't be able to force until after it anyway, so the delay is really sort of pointless.
Over all, it just doesn't even out unless Illusions is moved down to Adept in Discernment. But, if you're willing to concede to that, sure.
Ignite is a newbie skill, and this immediately rules it out as getting to have that much power. The fact is, 2 seconds isn't much at all, especially since the equilibrium time on ignite is probaby 2+ seconds, meaning you wouldn't be able to force until after it anyway, so the delay is really sort of pointless.
Over all, it just doesn't even out unless Illusions is moved down to Adept in Discernment. But, if you're willing to concede to that, sure.
Elryn2005-08-04 12:29:30
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Aug 4 2005, 05:51 PM)
Why would Nature users be the ones most able to start them? Fire brought about civilization, and usually nature people try to prevent forest fires, not start them.
161248
Because if fires are coded as an easily accessible weapon, it means hell for the communes. Either it will have to be restricted into uselessness as the forestals will need a chance not to be forced into constant dousing runs (I thought we were trying to avoid more unavoidable time-consuming conflict mechanics?), or it will become a tool for those who want to cause havoc.
I was thinking more along the lines of the following, an addition to the Nature skillset:
QUOTE
Burning ___ Maintain a flourishing ecosystem with controlled fires.
Syntax: NATURE BURN BEGIN
NATURE BURN END
Required commodities: 1 wood.
Wielding a tinderbox and a suitable faggot, you can begin a controlled burn in your location to reduce the density of the surrounding undergrowth and allow for fresh growth. Be warned that there is a small chance the flames of your burn will leap past your control area and fan a fire that envelops the entire area.
> NATURE BURN BEGIN
You carefully light your faggot until it crackles with flame. Whispering a simple charm to keep your blaze contained, you thrust the burning wood into a portion of the surrounding plantlife.
Hot winds blow past your face as a small portion of nearby flora ignites and is lost to the burn.
Hot winds blow past your face as a small portion of nearby flora ignites and is lost to the burn.
An unexpectedly strong breeze lifts a burning ember over the boundary of your burn and without warning a roaring inferno engulfs your location!
/or/
> NATURE BURN END
You shake out your faggot and allow the flames in your burn area to sizzle out.
- What it does: On the first command enters the character into a state of ongoing burn. Each ‘Hot winds…’ line corresponds to the density of the location’s plantlife being decreased by 5%. 30% density is optimal for herb/plant growth, 0% means the area has basically been burnt out and will take a long time to regrow, 100% means the area is choked with plantlife and herb/plant growth is also very low, with a small chance of igniting a spontaneous forest fire. Each burn line there is a 5-10% chance – very small - that the room will be set to on fire, and the burn stopped. It basically then becomes a forest fire (not sure if only forests can burn), which can spread if not put out. Might be nice if some commodity is obtained from the process as well.
- Where it works: Forest (maybe also valley, hills, swamp if they can handle fire). If it is considered necessary, it may also be set to work only in the forest type associated with the druid/wiccan, to avoid it being used excessively as a weapon.
- Cost for using: Must have tinderbox in inventory, also must have 1 wood that is consumed on use. Costs 200 mana, 50 willpower initially, ongoing cost of 50 willpower per burn. Requires and consumes balance to start, requires nothing to end. While active the character can only LOOK, NATURE ASSESS, WHO, TELL, SAY, channel communication, and NATURE BURN END, any other action ends the burn. Much like statue destruction.
- I imagine NATURE RAIN puts out any fire in the location, I would also expect a low-level ability in environment that allows other people to put out fires, by kicking dirt or buckets of water. Maybe also something in totems so that Serenguard/Ebonguard are especially capable at fighting fires.
- I realize placing fire skills in the hands of novices could be considered dangerous, but these are high-level forestal novices only. It is in their interest to avoid fires, and any firebugs by this method can be easily detected with Assess.
Syntax: NATURE BURN BEGIN
NATURE BURN END
Required commodities: 1 wood.
Wielding a tinderbox and a suitable faggot, you can begin a controlled burn in your location to reduce the density of the surrounding undergrowth and allow for fresh growth. Be warned that there is a small chance the flames of your burn will leap past your control area and fan a fire that envelops the entire area.
> NATURE BURN BEGIN
You carefully light your faggot until it crackles with flame. Whispering a simple charm to keep your blaze contained, you thrust the burning wood into a portion of the surrounding plantlife.
Hot winds blow past your face as a small portion of nearby flora ignites and is lost to the burn.
Hot winds blow past your face as a small portion of nearby flora ignites and is lost to the burn.
An unexpectedly strong breeze lifts a burning ember over the boundary of your burn and without warning a roaring inferno engulfs your location!
/or/
> NATURE BURN END
You shake out your faggot and allow the flames in your burn area to sizzle out.
- What it does: On the first command enters the character into a state of ongoing burn. Each ‘Hot winds…’ line corresponds to the density of the location’s plantlife being decreased by 5%. 30% density is optimal for herb/plant growth, 0% means the area has basically been burnt out and will take a long time to regrow, 100% means the area is choked with plantlife and herb/plant growth is also very low, with a small chance of igniting a spontaneous forest fire. Each burn line there is a 5-10% chance – very small - that the room will be set to on fire, and the burn stopped. It basically then becomes a forest fire (not sure if only forests can burn), which can spread if not put out. Might be nice if some commodity is obtained from the process as well.
- Where it works: Forest (maybe also valley, hills, swamp if they can handle fire). If it is considered necessary, it may also be set to work only in the forest type associated with the druid/wiccan, to avoid it being used excessively as a weapon.
- Cost for using: Must have tinderbox in inventory, also must have 1 wood that is consumed on use. Costs 200 mana, 50 willpower initially, ongoing cost of 50 willpower per burn. Requires and consumes balance to start, requires nothing to end. While active the character can only LOOK, NATURE ASSESS, WHO, TELL, SAY, channel communication, and NATURE BURN END, any other action ends the burn. Much like statue destruction.
- I imagine NATURE RAIN puts out any fire in the location, I would also expect a low-level ability in environment that allows other people to put out fires, by kicking dirt or buckets of water. Maybe also something in totems so that Serenguard/Ebonguard are especially capable at fighting fires.
- I realize placing fire skills in the hands of novices could be considered dangerous, but these are high-level forestal novices only. It is in their interest to avoid fires, and any firebugs by this method can be easily detected with Assess.
Jadryga2005-08-04 13:09:32
QUOTE(Aleron @ Aug 4 2005, 08:12 PM)
If it takes one chop outside of Faethorn, I really don't see why ignite should work. Its a noob skill and that -completely- blows the balance. Unless something in the basic Nature skillset ruins Terrain. Else its just not even.
Ignite is a newbie skill, and this immediately rules it out as getting to have that much power. The fact is, 2 seconds isn't much at all, especially since the equilibrium time on ignite is probaby 2+ seconds, meaning you wouldn't be able to force until after it anyway, so the delay is really sort of pointless.
Over all, it just doesn't even out unless Illusions is moved down to Adept in Discernment. But, if you're willing to concede to that, sure.
Ignite is a newbie skill, and this immediately rules it out as getting to have that much power. The fact is, 2 seconds isn't much at all, especially since the equilibrium time on ignite is probaby 2+ seconds, meaning you wouldn't be able to force until after it anyway, so the delay is really sort of pointless.
Over all, it just doesn't even out unless Illusions is moved down to Adept in Discernment. But, if you're willing to concede to that, sure.
161324
2 seconds?
We're talking about taking TWENTY to thirty seconds per sapling, and more for the sturdier plants, not 2 seconds.
Even I would say that 2 seconds for ignite is pushing my luck. Hard.
Realitycheck is instant.
Chop is at about Expert in Environment, and requires an axe. Chop chop, 4 seconds. Some saplings it takes 2 chops, which is about 8-10 seconds.
What would be interesting is a low chance to set an adjacent room ablaze, say a 30% chance, or if the fire is left undoused for a long period of time.
It would be a great RP tool too, I could just see Glomdoring and Serenwilde setting fire to each other's forests to "cleanse" them.
They could also push ignite a little higher, although I'm not quite sure what level it currently is at.
Shiri2005-08-04 13:13:43
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Aug 4 2005, 02:09 PM)
They could also push ignite a little higher, although I'm not quite sure what level it currently is at.
161355
Low. To the point where pushing it higher would make it like adept, which given that it's the primary mage skill is irrelevant.
I wonder if there's some chance of illusions backlashing and instead forming over the NEW meld in the room or something though, if there's going to be oddities like this presented.
Elryn2005-08-04 13:22:38
So, then we'd have to balance your suggestions.
How about an elixir that you can drip onto the ground that nullifies any illusions there? As an optional alternative to realitycheck. And add an ability in Nature to spread algae/weeds through water/taintland that quickly destroy any structures and items if left untreated. Letting it hit city rooms will cause enormous ongoing drains on nexus power until it is cleared entirely. It will occasionally entangle any player trying to move through the area.
Sound like fun?
How about an elixir that you can drip onto the ground that nullifies any illusions there? As an optional alternative to realitycheck. And add an ability in Nature to spread algae/weeds through water/taintland that quickly destroy any structures and items if left untreated. Letting it hit city rooms will cause enormous ongoing drains on nexus power until it is cleared entirely. It will occasionally entangle any player trying to move through the area.
Sound like fun?
Gregori2005-08-04 13:31:51
How about I want a skill called overgrowth, in Druidry? What this skill does is any Urban environment is overgrown with vines and underbrush, quickly spreading through out the local area, until someone with an axe comes along and chops it down. It will hinder movement like Briarwalls, while causing bleeding damage every 10 seconds just for being in the same room!
EDIT:: On second thought I want the skill in Nature, so all my novices can have fun and play!
EDIT:: On second thought I want the skill in Nature, so all my novices can have fun and play!
Gwylifar2005-08-04 14:12:53
QUOTE(Elryn @ Aug 4 2005, 09:22 AM)
How about an elixir that you can drip onto the ground that nullifies any illusions there?
161362
Not an elixir; make it a powder, like charged sulfur and salt, so you SPRINKLE it.
Unknown2005-08-04 14:43:19
QUOTE(Revan @ Aug 4 2005, 05:05 AM)
Can't say you're any different really Nars. The argument "takes one to know one" comes to mind. Anyway... you want a nice balance? Here goes.
1) Make Saplings die in one chop universally so there's no inbalance.
2) failing that, make reality check take about 5 seconds to work.
3) Make ignite burn down saplings with about a 2 second delay. Not only will this boost business for enchanters (Sorry Nars, it's a valid argument), but it'll provide everyone with an easy method to rid a demesne of saplings with enough of a delay for the druid (and their moondancer cronies if they got em) to defend their territory.
1) Make Saplings die in one chop universally so there's no inbalance.
2) failing that, make reality check take about 5 seconds to work.
3) Make ignite burn down saplings with about a 2 second delay. Not only will this boost business for enchanters (Sorry Nars, it's a valid argument), but it'll provide everyone with an easy method to rid a demesne of saplings with enough of a delay for the druid (and their moondancer cronies if they got em) to defend their territory.
161299
Okay, yea, no. If you're in MY forest, or in A forest, you're going to have a hard time. In both cities, the mages get illusions, and thus dispell. In both forests, NO ONE has dispell. We CANNOT kill illusory terrain in one hit. However, I CAN put a crapload of lessons into Discernment for a skill to be able to use MY skill.
Any druid can kill a sapling or tree in one move. Any mage can kill a terrain in one move. If a druid wishes to break an illusion, we need to put crap into Discernment. If a mage wishes to break our demesne, they can get chopping.
Except, we have another weakness. Axelords can chop through our trees. And every city and commune has those. Sorry, your arguement is seriously just gone.
Unless, of course, I can NATURE TRUESIGHT, which will destroy illusory terrain in the room. It should be a basic Nature skill - around novice or so. Or maybe SPIRITBOND BAT, which then lets us SCREECH, which will reveal the true terrain.
Thanks.
Sylphas2005-08-04 15:13:43
You enter my demesne, drop a monolith, chop away.
I enter your demesne, get instantly summoned.
I wouldn't really mind all that much if everywhere took one chop (even though it actually makes mages think twice about butting into the commune conflict in Faethorn), but this fire crap is ridiculous. I don't miss forest firest at ALL.
I enter your demesne, get instantly summoned.
I wouldn't really mind all that much if everywhere took one chop (even though it actually makes mages think twice about butting into the commune conflict in Faethorn), but this fire crap is ridiculous. I don't miss forest firest at ALL.
Jadryga2005-08-04 17:09:14
pssh.... think of the RP value!
Pulling the communities together to combat forest fires, yadeeda...
I dunno, I actually like that overgrowth idea.
Despite the fact that it would give us a headache, it's an interesting idea. It would add to the number of things that we can do during our free time, and a legit reason to have patrols... we can send the Ur'Guard novices around the city to chop down overgrowth. Ooer. I can see new forms of punishment already.
"Normally, I'd kill you, but I think I'll just put you on weed duty."
Pulling the communities together to combat forest fires, yadeeda...
I dunno, I actually like that overgrowth idea.
Despite the fact that it would give us a headache, it's an interesting idea. It would add to the number of things that we can do during our free time, and a legit reason to have patrols... we can send the Ur'Guard novices around the city to chop down overgrowth. Ooer. I can see new forms of punishment already.
"Normally, I'd kill you, but I think I'll just put you on weed duty."
Richter2005-08-04 18:10:01
I really wish we could just all make fire. I could give Serenwilde the big finger while setting all their rooms alight. I remember once on aetolia, Alamar and Aralius set a large part of the forest on fire, going from room to room. I want to be able to do that here.
Gregori2005-08-04 18:26:16
QUOTE(Jadryga @ Aug 4 2005, 11:09 AM)
pssh.... think of the RP value!
Pulling the communities together to combat forest fires, yadeeda...
I dunno, I actually like that overgrowth idea.
Despite the fact that it would give us a headache, it's an interesting idea. It would add to the number of things that we can do during our free time, and a legit reason to have patrols... we can send the Ur'Guard novices around the city to chop down overgrowth. Ooer. I can see new forms of punishment already.
"Normally, I'd kill you, but I think I'll just put you on weed duty."
Pulling the communities together to combat forest fires, yadeeda...
I dunno, I actually like that overgrowth idea.
Despite the fact that it would give us a headache, it's an interesting idea. It would add to the number of things that we can do during our free time, and a legit reason to have patrols... we can send the Ur'Guard novices around the city to chop down overgrowth. Ooer. I can see new forms of punishment already.
"Normally, I'd kill you, but I think I'll just put you on weed duty."
161445
*sigh* so much for me being a smart@$$. Anyways, the idea would be interestng I admit, but then again I am one of the few people who doesn't think Forest fires are a bad thing. Just an annoying thing. In either case I wouldn't want novices being able to do either of the two.
Gwylifar2005-08-04 19:10:25
QUOTE(Richter @ Aug 4 2005, 02:10 PM)
I really wish we could just all make fire. I could give Serenwilde the big finger while setting all their rooms alight. I remember once on aetolia, Alamar and Aralius set a large part of the forest on fire, going from room to room. I want to be able to do that here.
161474
I wouldn't mind that provided we had a way to screw the cities just as badly and make them all spend long miserable hours having no fun fixing it. Then everyone can have no fun together. Aetolia was a perfect example of how not to do this, as it was on almost anything forestal, and I hope Lusternia will continue to be free from such wild imbalances (even if it remains just as mired in misery-makework).
Now, if fire were implemented in a full realistic simulation, so it had a good side as well as a bad out-of-control side, that'd be something -- though it'd still need some equivalent in the cities. But fire as implemented in Aetolia was simply always bad and always out of control and always a way to make people miserable for no benefit, and has no place anywhere but Aetolia.
Richter2005-08-04 19:39:55
Deleted an unneeded comment, and the unneeded reply to said comment. PM me if you have a question.
Continue on topic, thanks.
Continue on topic, thanks.
