I know it has been said, but I'm going to try and break this down one more time:

Geomancers and Aquamancers are associated with their respective Elemental Plane. For this reason, no opposing Druid/Mage can disrupt this (you cannot forest, flood, or infest on Earth for example)

Guardians are associated with their respective Cosmic Plane. For this reason, a demon explodes on Celestia.

Druids and Wiccans, however, -share- a respective plane: Ethereal. In the case of Druids, it is not possible to meld Ethereal Serenwilde or Ethereal Glomdoring with opposing magics. Furthermore, Faethorn (the only forest where this sapling issue arises) is somewhat protected against Tainting/Flooding (as we see with saplings taking more chops).

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The argument that reality check takes 1 use anywhere is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how many times or how effective a Druid checks on Earth, they still are completely unable to forest and meld.

The only valid concern that has been hinted at but not addressed is that Ethereal Serenwilde and Ethereal Glomdoring have the 'benefits' on one plane that is spread between two planes for cities; however for this reason, the Moon and Night Avatars are weaker than Demon Lords and Supernals. Furthermore, access to the Ethereal Plane cannot be as restricted as access to Cosmic Planes. There are four (and perhaps more in the future) gates that lead into the Ethereal Plane and only two gates that lead in the Cosmic Planes.

Now, take it from a chopping person.

When we chop, there is at least 4+ seconds where we're off-balance, and vulnerable. Still getting hit by the demesne, by the way. Since we haven't done anything directly to the demesne, just broke the shield.

Ignite will be worse, 20-30 seconds min? Same thing, demesne will still be hitting us, and you can always come put it out, INSTANTLY, preserving the sapling, and kill us.

In Dai, some saplings took more than one chop. Don't ask me why, I was surprised myself. Chop. Eh, it's still here. Chop. Crash. That meant at least 8 seconds where I was vulnerable to a demesne. I was running around with Tsakar, cos he couldn't chop, and two or three times, while I was chopping, he got wisped out from right under my nose, and killed. That was the point where I went home for a monolith or two.

Monoliths.

Kalo(dan), do you know the costs of making a monolith? Find out, multiply it by 50, then tell me if it's cost effective to waste that much gold EVERY battle, since you're saying throw down flamed ones. Throw in flames while we're at it.

The point of forest fires, was just to suggest an alternative. Yes, it's easier, yes, it doesn't require much lessons, yes, it doesn't require an axe, but it's also much, much more dangerous than chopping and realitycheck, namely because the demesne is still hitting you, and you haven't actually downed the dratted sapling yet, so it could be that you're doing it for nothing, if someone comes along and douses it. Anyone with Nature Rain can douse it. I do believe every single forestal has Nature.

It would also add another aspect of RP, if a sapling on fire has a chance of igniting an adjacent sapling, which Serenwilde and Glomdoring can take advantage of. Regular patrols to look for fires, which, mind you, are realistic scenarios, a firefighting team, where everyone can learn to work in a team and bond for the good of the commune, yadeeda.

To balance it out, there could always be that overgrowth thingy Gregori mentioned.

Realitycheck is instant, mind you, so the second you realitycheck, you're safe from the effects of the demesne.

I think you misunderstand it. No, the second you realitycheck, you then have to wait for your 4 seconds of eq back, still being hit by the demesne (and maybe demesne summoned away even if you DO have monoliths...)

uh no. Reality check is not instant and the moment you reality check you are not safe from the demesne. You have oh a 3- 4 second wait and -then- you can remove the Demesne, and be safe from it. That is of course hoping you are in the right spot and not got yourself turned around so you find out that you can't remove the demesne regardless.

Ah, I see.

Well, that makes it equal to one chop, and much better than 2-4 chops.

Also far, far superior to the proposed ignite, which will take 20 seconds minimum.

I would also add that even if you take into consideration willowisp, Druids with a Wiccan have no method to summon a target chopping saplings who places a monolith in the room before they begin.

However, Mages are still able to demesne summon through monoliths while their opponent is attempting to remove illusionary terrain.

Mage demesne summon also costs 3p, whether they succeed or fail. Which means a mage can summon 3 times max until he or she has to regen power. It works ONLY in the mage's demesne and is also dependent on factors like size and malkuth. 3 failed attempts is 9 wasted power.

Wisp costs 1p, and if Kalodan has his facts straight, 0p if it fails. Which means a wisper can potentially wisp 10 times in a row, instantly, in ANY unmelded but forested land (of the same type, which of course, the demesne would presumedly be, heh), before he or she has to regen power. Also, more than one wiccan can wisp.

They may not be able to summon a chopper through a monolith, but a chopper is also vulnerable, since the chopper is still getting hit by the demesne, and has AT LEAST 4-5 seconds while they're off balance, allowing a bunch of people, who presumably weren't able to wisp, to find the person, and kill him. Another way, would be for one person to patrol the demesne, and simply pick up chopper's monos, allowing him or her to be wisped into his or her doom.

Either Kalodan has miscommunicated his facts or he does not have them straight. If they fail due to resistance, which according to the tests I posted are identical to demesne summons, then they are indeed lost. If they fail due to monoliths, conversely, or the target not being in a forest, or the wrong kind of forest, they are not lost.

But equilibrium IS lost in all of those circumstances. So no, they cannot wisp instantly. And it's trivial to throw an unflamed monolith ahead.

And I can't, in any situation other than Faethorn raids, that this would not work, nor can I say that apart from Faethorn there is any reason why a forest should be there, but unmelded. It doesn't follow.
And you know, the 4-5 seconds for people to find them while off-balance applies equally to mage demesnes...also keep in mind that mages can sense those entering the demesne, where a wiccan can't. They can set up obscure spammy trigger systems, of course, but these will by necessity be slower than a pair of two people walking in, chopping, and the other person tainting/flooding.

#alias mdrop {get monolith;%1;drop monolith}

Instant wisp immunity.

Seriously Jadryga, what are you after? Why don't we just get rid of guilds and every single person can be a geomancer... then it would be standarized enough, no?

You are absolutely correct in your analysis that there are difference in willowisp and demesne summon. Willowisp takes ANOTHER PERSON (bear in mind, it is like a mythical ability too... and since it is a wiccan skill and not a druid skill, it is quite obvious why it can be done in an unmelded room), costs 1p, and fails on monolith sigils. Demesne summon, however, can be cast by the mage -with- the demesne, goes through monoliths, put has a more expensive power cost.

Furthermore, you seem to be under the impression that the Hartstone demesne is lethal in 4-5 seconds. I'd like to review the worst case scenario: 300 damage, 125 bleeding, a pennyroyal cure, a melancholic cure, focus body... I don't think that is taking down -anyone- quickly. It takes 1.5 seconds to cure in total.

Furthermore, you can enter a room, drop a monolith, and chop instantly. It isn't really feasible to argue that someone can "patrol" a 20+ demesne at every break point in 4 seconds.

I'd also like to add that the "saplings are unfair" rant boils down to this:

Geomancers and Aquamancers cannot easily taint/flood Faethorn. Other than that, one chop takes about the same amount of time as one reality check.

As you will find listed above: Druids cannot forest Elemental Planes period. End of story.

Sure, and #alias clingme {climb up;cling} doesn't get FUBAR'd by Sylph, as -could- Wisp get inbetween get get/drop.
Technically.
Don't go on about chances, we both know.

Then pick it up and throw it. It takes balance, but you're doing it from a non-demesne room, (except in Faethorn) so it's completely irrelevant.

Whose side are you on? I mean seriously, you could have just hinted that there were ways to get get around wisp without spelling it out. -keels Shiri-

They've done it before, they must know that one!

First of all get monolith move drop monolith is a singular action, meaning 1 person

Notice person enter demesne, call out wisp person, wisper hears you call out and wisps person, is a dual action, meaning two people.

In the first case you have 1 person's lag to deal with. In the second case you have 2 people's lag to deal with. If wisping people was easy. We would have removed all of Magnagora and Glomdoring from Faethorn within the first hour.

More than one person can wisp.

I've yet to be wisped into a total of one Serenwilder. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a big bunch of Serens tend to gather in one spot in the demesne, THEN wisp. So if there are 3 moondancers there, you can wisp 30 times. The more, the merrier. Each moondancer X10. Perhaps there is a 4 second wait per person, but if you take turns, this can be reduced to 2 seconds or less before I'm wisped again.

Demesne summon can ONLY be done by the melded mage, at a higher power cost, so at one pop, only 3 demesne summons can be done until the need to regen.

Yes, there are ways to get around wisp, but you're still being hit by the demesne. Even if it's a 1.5 second delay, it's compounded by the MINIMUM 4 second delay when you're chopping. Throwing also gives you a 4 second offbalance period. Flowing is quite instant, and as far as I know, not stopped by a monolith.

What part of two people to perform it is hard to grasp? No matter if you have 2 people or 50 people, you are still comparing the movement of 1 person to the coordination of multiple. 1 persons lag will 95% of the time beat 2 peoples combined lag.

Demesne summon can be done the instant the person enters the demesne. Meaning you are playing heads or tails with who is faster the summoner, or the person removing the demesne. The only balancing issue there is summon resistance. Which gosh. You get with wisp too, only you have a 100% summon resistance.


EDIT::

Don't try telling me about how hard it is to put down Monolith sigils either. You can mass produce the damn things and store them for a rainy day. I have been there when you covered Faethorn completely in Monolith sigils so that you couldn't be wisped.

Hence the reason I pointed out that Serenwilders rarely use wisp when there's very few people. They tend to enjoy wisping into large groups, which means there is a high chance there is more than one moondancer.

Jadryga,

And as Nejii has pointed out, there is a means for you to put a monolith sigil in a room BEFORE you enter. There is a reason that in the last 50 raids into Ethereal Glomdoring, I have been wisped twice. Both times, it was a result of heavy lag... however, wisp is -extremely- easy to avoid. Furthermore, I've went so back as to actually raid in a Blacktalon demesne. I've cut down elder ravenwood trees... and I assure you, my 10 chops were in -no- hindered by the 1.5 seconds it took to cure the demesne.