It's not even my suggestion, so I don't know why I'm discussing this so much... ah well.

It's the same for all such things, though. The only way is to hope.

Exactly. The helpfile doesn't say anything apart from you having those 15 minutes. However, it was established that there IS something like grace abuse, and what seemed to be obvious abuse to a good portion of us turned out not to be, so the question remains, what DOES count as grace abuse?

It's difficult to define grace abuse, as essentially the only way to abuse grace is to do something offensive and aggressive while graced (ie. find some way to attack or harm others, this is abuse because you can't be attacked or harmed yourself).

As an example, if someone managed to get an aggro tracking mob to follow them while in grace and ran into a populated area. Obviously the mob would stop following if said person were killed, but it would be impossible to do so as they're graced, meanwhile it proceeds to murder a bunch of people (this is a trick that was sometimes done in Achaea).

It's not an excellent example, and the truth is true instances of grace abuse are few and far between. However, I'm not going to say grace abuse doesn't exist, as I know if there is anything players are good at, it is breaking/abusing things.

I do try. Really, really hard. I do.

So this means to directly, actively harm someone, then? Lead an aggressive mob past their ward of guards and take him to a soft target area, or invoking a spell that somehow weakens them?

As opposed to, do something that indirectly harms them, like...

preventing them from keeping opponents out of the battlefield for a while (picking up corpses so they cannot destroy them to prevent quick resurrection by a coven and return to action)

or helping my team get to a spot where the opponent team can be harmed, where I could not get otherwise because the other team would kill me (like being a teleport beacon or finding a spot to break the demesne)

or doing a quest the defenders don't want me to because it will weaken their position in the next battle over an area (like doing the champions quests in Faethorn)?

I'm not sure whether I get the logic behind it
I'd like to though.

So, things like emoting illusions in the middle of a battle while you are graced to screw up your opponents, or just to screw up everyone?

How about graced village influencing in non-peaced villages? Is that considered grace abuse?

Influencing is SO an attack >_< You can't bash while graced, why can you influence?

no, I think the best solution would really be to just get rid of grace. Or reduce it to a one minute grace. Newbies keep their innocence. Everyone should be happy.

I'm enjoying the fae-gathering, though

which is why it needs to go away.

Fae gathering is a conflict quest, doing it graced is cheating. Why? because there is no way to do anything against it. the end.

ummm... I haven't seen you around during this....

would you happen to be Tarya then? Mate, using grace for this is one thing, but creating an alt so you get grace of innocence is -really- low, not to mention a policy violation. I seriously hope this is not you...

OH CRAP I'M BUSTED RUN! ROFLCOPTER LOLOCAUST! WTFBOMB!

Sorry Kalo but there goes my respect for you as a player.
*sigh*

Okay, let's read between the lines.


NO, YOU IDIOT. I'M NOT THAT A) STUPID MEAN.

Why would I risk EVERYTHING like that, when I could just run into Faethorn, die, get resurgemed, get about 5 minutes of grace, and collect Fae during it?

Tarya was a novice. Aside from the fact, I was idling at the Moonhart for the past hour and a half or so, after she was suggested to do that.

Tarya is not an alt created for that purpose.

She had another moondancer character a long while ago, who went inactive (one of my proteges, that's the only link you'll find to an active player from her).

She wanted to help out. Lisaera had recently pointed out that there's nothing wrong with sending innocent novvies in to help out.

Any questions?

Edit: To further emphasise the point - Ibaesha had to tell her -how- to collect fae.

plenty, I'll shut up though because the whole using grace for conflict quests is seriously annoying me so I'll just drop out of the discussion.

I don't agree with Lisaera, respectful and all, but it's Their game and not mine, so there's that.

Thanks for clearifying. Sorry Kalodan.

Illusions are not aggressive even when they're being used to waste people's supplies or screw up their systems, and thus can be used in safe rooms, in sanctuaries, and from behind grace. No, really. Would I make something like that up?

I'm still against the idea OOC, but if Lis TELLS us that we should let the novices help, and that there's nothing wrong with them helping, well.... *shrugs* I'm not an Admin, it's not my design decision as to what is abuse and what is intended. I'm playing their game, so... I might as well play their game

Just for the sake of clarity I do believe that it is only Estarra and Roark's game and that Lisaera is just another player in a different role than the rest. Her word is not a direct ruling on how the game should be played.