There's simply too much garbage to quote every individual little thing and contradict it, so I'll stick to the major stuff.

First, I'd like someone...-anyone-...to post a quote on the forums, or a log of something I've said in Lusternia, or hell, even on MSN, AIM, YIM, IRC, etc., that was bad about Thorgal. Ever. Even if it's something as trivial as "I think he has a big nose." Clearly I'm such a huge enemy of Thorgal's that this won't be a problem at all.

Second, I fully intend to pay the 30 credits for the new update. Considering the work he puts into it, I don't think it's unreasonable. However, that doesn't negate the fact that he's made this promise in the past, and is making it again. A point, incidentally, which has not been addressed by the Defenders of Thorgal, who instead choose to attack me.

And third, how am I an idiot? I made a perfectly valid observation. X was promised in the past. It is clearly not being honoured. X is being promised now. Why should people beleive X?

Did any of you actually read WHEN he made the post about paying for the new update? It was 3 MONTHS AGO and all of your bitching should have been made THEN and not NOW acting as if he broke some almighty promise thats going to send him straight to hell.

And strangely enough, I have NOT seen any of you (hell anyone at all) complaining about the new ZMUDXP project that Zugg is working on - if you want to be able to use the new zmud you had to either have bought a license in the month or so before he had his anniversary competition (think that was about July onwards) or fork out the money for his new zmud. Why because his product IS worth it and it wasn't viable for him to just slap it on as a free update for everyone considering the amount of work he is putting into it.

Do you have any education whatsoever in business? While you can disagree, there are certain ethical practices that have been violated that your misplaced example doesn't even begin to take into consideration:

Thorgal sold his system with the statement that the updates would be life-long and free. As such, Thorgal is ethically responsible to ensure that these standards are met by the persons who have already made the purchase. If a business owner attempted this in the US, he or she could be sued. In fact, if Thorgal was a US resident and I was a US resident who purchased this, I could in fact still sue in small claims court because the agreed upon stipulations are being violated.

That's basically how it works: you are obligated to uphold any sort of agreement you make. The faith of that agreement has been violated because this is in fact an "update" that is "not free." Whereas I can understand the time and such that goes into this, Thorgal should have NEVER made a claim such as life-long free updates because that was unrealistic and unlikely.

=====================================================

As for Zugg, they already made room for all this in their disclaimer about updates. You are comparing apples to oranges.

And just as a note to Thorgal, I think you should remove anything that instigates "free updates" for the future because this is one example of an update that isn't free. It will avoid confusion and likely save you from being harassed by some pissed off buyers.

As usual, I think Gregori and Narsrim should sod off and find something else to be asanine about.

If someone offer "free refills for life" in game, however they stop playing Lusternia, they did not "lie" or "cheat" anyone, and when they come back, they can continue to say "free refills for life"... the fact that Thorgal is willing to help people with a Lusternia system while he isn't even playing the game anymore is beyond good business practice and in my book makes him spot on. If you want to argue the way you do, pick something thats not going to actually hurt people, like your lame skills. And stop trying to defame people.

I guess it is a bit personal as my family owns a business, but I value ethical business practice. You can play word games all you want, feel free; however, there have been companies in the US sued for this same thing. No one should make a claim to provide something "for life" or "forever" with no intent to do so. Words count and you can be held legally accountable to them.

In this case, that's unlikely and I doubt anyone cares that much... but the idea here is that it could potentially invite trouble.

It's not defaming someone to point out a truth. But meh, whatever .

First, I rarely check out this section of the forums, and noted it was active. So, I had a look, and replied to what I saw.

Second, you've in NO WAY answered, or disvalued the content of my observation. All you've done is attempt to insult people, and derail them from what I pointed out.

Third, I've already said, I intend to spend the 30 credits to get the updates. It's worth it. Indeed, as I've also said, my intent wasn't to attack Thorgal, though it may have come out that way - it was simply to point out that he's said it before, and if he can't/won't uphold the obligation (For reasons that may or may not be valid, depending on your point of view), then he shouldn't advertise such - or should at least, put in a disclaimer of some sort.

Fourth,

Claims of being inactive are ineffectual when you still login. Indeed, if he was -truly- not playing Lusternia anymore, then his system would be completely worthless, as it would be outdated within weeks. The fact that he's able to maintain it is proof enough that he remains at least somewhat active in the game.

At least Daganev, failing as he always does, attempted to argue a point that was raised.

Fair enough, I sympathise.

I just find it extraordinary that:

1) We're even bothering to debate it.

2) That people don't seem to understand that Thorgal is NOT an American Multinational. He is NOT a business. THE SAME RULES DO NOT APPLY. Does Thorgal fill out tax returns on his credit income? Does he register for VAT? I rather think not. And if he does, he has too much time on his hands. You cannot judge Thorgal's private, helpful, enterprise on big-business lines. Do credits even legally count as money? A moot point I think. Anyone here studying law? I'm almost positive that your legal-action argument would be impractible, Narsrim.

3) That you can all be such total smallminded jobsworths.

4) That I'm wasting time making this post about the smallest bloody storm in a tea cup that I've ever encountered.



Rubbish. I log in every other day to Achaea, to read the news, and read messages sent to me. I haven't *played* Achaea for about 6 RL months.



Let's all do that.

Hell, he's not even American. Let's apply our rules to him. Remember that one time Nikua killed someone he'd lured to him with the promises of selling him some armour? Report him to the better business bureau!

I'm not an American either. In fact, that's a point in Thorgal's favour, not against him.

And 30 credits, so what? I don't really care, I'm planning on buying a whole ton more around Christmas. I merely felt it prudent to point out some flaws in his statements.

I also note that nobody (Well, except Munsia) has been able to come up with any sort of quote indicating that I in any way dislike Thorgal. I'm not trying to bash Thorgal. T'was never my intent. A pity that some people are too illiterate to understand this.

You will note such creative uses of the English language by use of the word "IF thorgal was an American." While yes, I know that he is not, I was pointing out that if he was, he could very much be liable. Furthermore, my underlying point was a matter of ETHICS. Are you familiar with the word? I don't mean to be rude, but this is nothing short of out right lying to customers. Thorgal promised a service, which he changed the terms of agreement on at a later date after being paid.

And yes Aiakon, I said it would be unlikely for a legal suit to take course. If you would bother to read, this would all be joyfully clear to you. However, there have been cases filed over similar such matters with other online games and people trying to scam others.

Right....Thorgal, thanks for doing a bloody good job with the system. For everyone out there with the new system, not just Thorgal, my system keeps on trying to parry on and on, drink frost, and eat a bunch of faeleaf and such. I understand the eating herbs for the defensive bits, but I am getting pissed because of the constant parrying, insomnia and drinking frost messages.

Well I didn't.


I know. And I was disagreeing with you.


Of course I am, and yes you do. You have resorted to the Narsrim tactic with which I am already so familiar - tactically patronising your opponent.


I say again: Thorgal promised a service. At the time in which he promised that service, he intended to honour it. Thus he did not lie. Breaking the terms of the arrangement was breaking faith. It's a fine distinction.. sophistry.. arguably.. but a worthwhile distinction all the same.


Your prose is hardly startlingly exciting, Narsrim old chap. Furthermore, I do have other things to think about. I will have read your post, but it is just possible that the more subtle of your nuances escaped my memory. Perhaps you should write in rhyming couplets.


As Asarnil has already pointed out, scamming is absolutely the last thing on Thorgal's mind, and he gave us 3 months notice. Over the last few posts, the verb 'to defame' has been thrown about a little bit too easily.. but you are now, finally, approaching something which could be construed as libel.

If you intend to honour a contractual obligation but fail to do so, you are still liable and should be held accountable. Good intentions pave the road the hell and quite frankly mean nothing. No amount of additional worldplay negates this very simple fact.

Make sure your elemental defense button is off. And you should have the parrying gagged, something sounds off.

By the conjunction of this comment with the quotation you drew from my post, I take it that you accept my argument that Thorgal did not lie.



A peculiar view.

who's to say American's are the bees knees of ethics, or are the authorities on what is ethical and what isn't?

Thorgal could have taken all your credits and not even offered a system, hell he could've charged you $100 US for the system to be deposited into his belgian bank account and there isn't a damn thing any of you can do about it.

Here's a thought, be happy you've gotten so much for your money, thorgal has done everyone who uses his system a true service, and you should all be happy he doesn't charge 500 credits, which is what i think the system is worth

No one. Learn to read. There have been discussions that talked about potential legal garbage in specific hypothetical instances. Law != Ethics, however.

However, for you to try and stipulate that this practice was anything but unethical is either a reflection of ignorance or blatant... something.