Nayl2005-08-23 07:07:25
QUOTE(Murphy @ Aug 23 2005, 01:52 PM)
I feel greatly for nocvice warriors. when I was a warrior i had trans skills and good weapons so i didn't feel the pain
171017
Now that your a Guardian, mind filling in the differences, and maybe ways to improve it?
I know that I started a Novice Ur'Guard, named Nayl, who I suicided, because the bashing sucked. I got immediately turned off by it and went to Guardian.
Xavius2005-08-23 07:49:21
The big difference in warrior and magic-flinger bashing is tankiness versus speed of damage. Cosmicfire is, believe it or not, superior in mob damage to a decent broadsword combo. Significantly so, actually. As a novice, the difference means that you can one-hit kill things that're worth decent xp. Tankiness is a complete non-issue. The warrior is actually taking more damage. They end up with the worst of both until higher levels, when the ability to simply not die is worth more.
Oh, and cudgel!
Oh, and cudgel!
Sylphas2005-08-23 08:07:40
Cudgel vs mobs = very nice.
Cudgel vs players = shite.
Cudgel vs players = shite.
Ekard2005-08-23 08:51:39
It's all true that novice warriors bashing is sh..
I suggest paladins novices to do pilgrims or suppicants, its way faster to get level this way.
When i changed from guardian to paladin on level 70 or so, i was shocked how hard is to hunt as warrior. When i was still in novicehood i had problems to kill rat, it goes better when i graduated from novicehood, lended cr for transing Blademaster.
But i have to say that 90% accuracy that is now is very helpfull, and i also think that for someone without knighthood specialization, clubs and shortswords should be as good as cosmicfire or other magic attack. And when you get specizalization then their effective fall greatly and you need to use you specializated weapons. It could help much.
I suggest paladins novices to do pilgrims or suppicants, its way faster to get level this way.
When i changed from guardian to paladin on level 70 or so, i was shocked how hard is to hunt as warrior. When i was still in novicehood i had problems to kill rat, it goes better when i graduated from novicehood, lended cr for transing Blademaster.
But i have to say that 90% accuracy that is now is very helpfull, and i also think that for someone without knighthood specialization, clubs and shortswords should be as good as cosmicfire or other magic attack. And when you get specizalization then their effective fall greatly and you need to use you specializated weapons. It could help much.
Unknown2005-08-23 10:45:02
QUOTE(Ekard @ Aug 23 2005, 06:51 PM)
i also think that for someone without knighthood specialization, clubs and shortswords should be as good as cosmicfire or other magic attack. And when you get specizalization then their effective fall greatly and you need to use you specializated weapons. It could help much.
171039
That would make things a bit uneven, what with the other advantages knights get of being tankier.
Thorgal2005-08-23 11:12:51
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Aug 23 2005, 12:45 PM)
That would make things a bit uneven, what with the other advantages knights get of being tankier.
171061
The issue here is novice bashing, so I don't understand why on earth you bring in tankiness at trans levels. Novice warriors aren't any tankier than other novices, but their damage output is 4 to 6 times lower, it's exceedingly frustrating to be a novice warrior.
Suggestion: Make knighthood and combat only affect weapon damage after mythical or fabled, perhaps using a new, passive skill. So the damage output of a novice would be the same as a virtuoso blademaster, but somewhat less than a trans blademaster.
Unknown2005-08-23 11:22:18
QUOTE(Thorgal @ Aug 23 2005, 09:12 PM)
The issue here is novice bashing, so I don't understand why on earth you bring in tankiness at trans levels. Novice warriors aren't any tankier than other novices, but their damage output is 4 to 6 times lower, it's exceedingly frustrating to be a novice warrior.
Suggestion: Make knighthood and combat only affect weapon damage after mythical or fabled, perhaps using a new, passive skill. So the damage output of a novice would be the same as a virtuoso blademaster, but somewhat less than a trans blademaster.
Suggestion: Make knighthood and combat only affect weapon damage after mythical or fabled, perhaps using a new, passive skill. So the damage output of a novice would be the same as a virtuoso blademaster, but somewhat less than a trans blademaster.
171071
I didn't say at a trans level . Knights are just generally tankier, and the race specialisation choices lend themselves to having more health also. I'm just saying, if you're going to bring one aspect up to X for knights, bring Y up for everyone else. For the Novices, I'm talking.
Shiri2005-08-23 11:24:26
Novice warrior bashing may be tanky, but I don't care how many baby rats I can tank, if it takes me 3 combos to kill them I'm going to think the bashing sucks and give up if I'm new to these games. (N.B - exaggeration.)
Thorgal2005-08-23 11:24:34
Knights only get tankier than other archetypes when they get a fieldplate and learn surge, which is 50% into mythical athletics.
Neither are accessable to the general novice.
Neither are accessable to the general novice.
Unknown2005-08-23 11:27:18
QUOTE(Thorgal @ Aug 23 2005, 09:24 PM)
Knights only get tankier than other archetypes when they get a fieldplate and learn surge, which is 50% into mythical athletics.
Neither are accessable to the general novice.
Neither are accessable to the general novice.
171078
By tankier, I meant generally have more health. And...oh blah I really can't be bothered arguing a point I don't much care about .
Shorlen2005-08-23 11:45:36
Okay, I recently made a Serenguard novice, and there are a few things I noticed. Firstly, knighthood lessons DRASTICLY improved my chance to hit and damage. Or at least, it certainly felt like it did. You only tell novices to spend 30 lessons on it. Do some testing if you want, but I think suggesting they spend most of their 155 initial lessons on knighthood would help. I'm not sure if the +1 strength from Bear helps more than 35 extra lessons in Knighthood. Secondly, you tell them to use the concentrated fighting style. I found that I killed things 50%-100% faster using the aggressive combat style. Tell them that, though Rift/Teleport, Bear/Totem Spec, Wounds/Diagnose, and Clotting are nice, focusing on Knighthood first will probably help them more if they want to bash.
Xenthos2005-08-23 13:23:55
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Aug 23 2005, 07:27 AM)
By tankier, I meant generally have more health. And...oh blah I really can't be bothered arguing a point I don't much care about .
171080
But look at it this way... they're not really tankier, because the things they fight live longer. Who needs more health- the mage who never gets attacked because they kill the creature in one blow, or (worst case scenario) gets attacked ONCE because it takes them two attacks to kill off that tougher creature... or the knight who gets hit three to five or more times because they are doing pathetic damage (meaning the NPC lives longer).
By this, warrior novices should have three to five times the health of their non-warrior counterparts, but they do not. A loboshigaru warrior is as healthy as a loboshigaru guardian, just has vitality to give a little surge of health, and weathering for one extra point of constitution.
Getting hit 0 times is quite obviously superior to getting hit five times.
Gwylifar2005-08-23 13:39:03
QUOTE(Shorlen @ Aug 23 2005, 07:45 AM)
Secondly, you tell them to use the concentrated fighting style. I found that I killed things 50%-100% faster using the aggressive combat style.
171086
I always told them to use Aggressive. Wonder who's telling them Concentrated. There was never an official recommendation on that as part of the novice training that I ever knew about.
As for the skill distribution, it's a good point, and one I always hoped to get Jelani to look at when he finally got his new novice program going. Hopefully Klia will look at it. The distribution we've always had makes sense for learning how to fight, not to hunt. But maybe it'd make more sense to put off some of that until later. The concern is that if they put it off it'll never happen, but if they don't put it off, that might drive away people entirely, and that's even worse.
Unknown2005-08-23 13:54:27
When Farson was a level 18 Tae'dae Ebonguard with 100% adept knighthood, a masterwork waraxe, and bear bonded, it took me 2-3 very slow (5-6 second balance) swings to take down the easiest Finks in Newton.
On a level 5 Mugwump Celestine I was able to kill the Fink Warriors and Gnome Knights on top of Smoke Mountain, Rock Hogs, and Ants in one hit each. With about 2 seconds equilibrium on each attack, plus a perfection enchantment meaning I could bash almost nonstop.
Ta da.
On a level 5 Mugwump Celestine I was able to kill the Fink Warriors and Gnome Knights on top of Smoke Mountain, Rock Hogs, and Ants in one hit each. With about 2 seconds equilibrium on each attack, plus a perfection enchantment meaning I could bash almost nonstop.
Ta da.
Unknown2005-08-23 13:54:50
P.S. Yeah, aggressive is by far the best for bashing.
Genos2005-08-23 16:06:39
I think another problem is novice Warrior's don't get weapons when they start like everyone does in Achaea. Now, most of the time it isn't a big deal because higher ups in the guilds are online, but when people who live in a different timezone can't get anyone to forge them one have to start out kicking things to death. I manage because I gather enough gold to buy wood for clubs that I forge with Inept forging so I have a -chance- of killing something without running away from it and sleeping. But pure novices wouldn't know anything and just be stuck to wait for someone to help. I can't think of any good way to solve it except for maybe adding a newbie bashing skill or just make it so Headslam (or whatever it's called) always hits and hurts the denizen, this wouldn't matter once you get higher up because you get much better weapons that outsrip headslam damage by far. It would just tide newbie warriors over until they get enough money to actually have someone keep forging over and over for a decent weapon.
Estarra2005-08-23 16:44:13
Per the latest announce regarding the upgrade to novice knights, please let me know if they are still having problems.
Regarding weapons, that is what Trader Bob is for, to provide basic, inexpensive first weapons.
(Honestly, you can use PUNCH/KICK in Newton Caverns pretty effectively.)
Regarding weapons, that is what Trader Bob is for, to provide basic, inexpensive first weapons.
(Honestly, you can use PUNCH/KICK in Newton Caverns pretty effectively.)
Ceres2005-08-23 16:51:58
QUOTE(Estarra @ Aug 23 2005, 04:44 PM)
(Honestly, you can use PUNCH/KICK in Newton Caverns pretty effectively.)
171217
You can use CAST BLAST/ABJURE COSMICFIRE far, far more effectively
Estarra2005-08-23 16:53:56
QUOTE(Ceres @ Aug 23 2005, 09:51 AM)
You can use CAST BLAST/ABJURE COSMICFIRE far, far more effectively
Well, yes, but my point was if the newbie knight needed gold to buy his/her first weapon, it isn't that hard to make it questing and bashing with punch/kick.
Ceres2005-08-23 16:57:45
Right, gotcha.
But that's still an added inconvenience to being a knight.
Honestly, if I'd been a "true" newbie when I was starting out with my knight, I might well have given up in frustration. Nothing's worse than watching another novice just sweep through killing everything in one hit.
But that's still an added inconvenience to being a knight.
Honestly, if I'd been a "true" newbie when I was starting out with my knight, I might well have given up in frustration. Nothing's worse than watching another novice just sweep through killing everything in one hit.