I think Supernals and Demon Lords should call out for help. Since their deaths harm their organizations far more than the Avatars death. As they are much harder to defend, since they aren't in home territory, and cubixes can be used to bypass what little passive defenses are available to the cities. Sidenote though, I tested Gorgulu, and Gwyllgi hits far harder, I was able to tank Gorgulu easily with archdemons for a while.

A couple of hypothetical questions. These may be crap for brains questions, but I'm trying to understand the logic involved.

1) Aren't there 5 Supernals/Infernals compared to 3 Moon/Night avatars? I think if there are less each one would be more powerful.

2) Isn't planar distance a factor. In other words, technically its supposed to be harder to get to the Cosmic planes than the ethereal, correct? Wouldn't it be harder for those beings to keep in touch three planes away?

Justification to Avatars crying out:

Wiccans are the sworn defenders of Ethereal and the Fae.

On the other hand, Celestines and Nihilists swear allegience to the Demon Lords and Supernals.

The relationship between the Guardians and the Half-formed is more that of servants than between the Fae and Wiccans, and the Half-formed are more independant.

I think it would make sense for the Half-formed to cry out as well, though.

(Nil) Supreme Lord Luciphage says, "Who dares to strike at the master of Nil?!", or (Nil) Ashtorath says, "FOOL! I WILL LAY WASTE TO ALL WHO OPPOSE ME!" would make perfect sense. And be pretty cool, too, because the Demon Lords are such badasses.

In a skimpy bikini, slathered in oil.

Hawt.

The oil will be hard to notice underneath the pus.

Hmm, well, if people think Moon Avatars never being killed is fair, then that's not so bad.

Yep and when I pwn them late if they ever try, we are going to use this thread to shut them up.

I'm sorry the previous posts were Guidoan and Yraenian in nature. Let me try to touch this a little, see if I can explain it.

Question 1 -

As to your first question. You'ld be talking on a pure balance basis - sure, mathmatically, the sum of the power of both groups should be equal to one another. However, I'm also expecting you to take into account the fact that an infinite number of guards can be placed with each of the avatars - that is to say, infinite as long as one has a sufficient amount of power to maintain these guards, and the gold to summon them. On top of this, there are totems there, as well. Totems function just as statues do - however, they are only down for a small period of time, and nothing by a player can be done to it. The drawback is, of course, one person can bond one totem and no more - while an enchanter can bond multiple (possibly an infinite number - I'm not sure of this) statues. Maybe he doesn't even need to bond them. I am unaware of how statues work on this level.

This can, in theory, make the avatars invulnerable. In practice it is, well, impractical. The power drain would be very large from the guards, but if what I remember still stands, Glomdoring is not one to place a lot of guards in their villages. Viravain tried, with varying success, to instill into the population that the lives of the villagers DO NOT MATTER - NOTHING matters, except the Glomdoring. And if those villagers should die, they should be happy they did so in the name of the Glomdoring. Nothing more, nothing less. They should be content with the power they gave the Master Ravenwood, and hope that their successors will succeed in the same. This allows them to channel a large portion of their guard-forces into the Ethereal, defending their avatars and whatever else lies there.

Demonlords/Supernals, however, are forced to rely on whatever help might ACCIDENTLY stumble upon them - of course, it is Celest's and Magnagora's duty to post watches on the Cosmic Planes, so I have no pity on them if their demonlords/supernals die without them knowing they're even being attacked. We had watchers on the Ethereal 24/7, protecting the Fae. We did this for much more than a week. Sorry, Magnagora and Celest can manage this as well.

This is pure mechanics. Now, in the name of roleplay - Mother Moon was given what form she has by Lisaera, when She used Her ability, as an Awakener, to give the Moon a spirit. At least, it seems as such. As well, Lisaera's Sister, a fellow Awakener, did the same for Mother Night - with argueably more success, as Mother Night maintains a physical body, versus Moon, who is more of a ethereal presence, a silvery light that fills the area, versus a woman made of Shadow.

Now, the way it SEEMS to me, and I am still trying to grasp everything while asking questions suiting a small child, Ellindel and Glinshari stumbled upon the Ethereal Realm. Here they found spirits without bodies, the spirits of Nature, dieing. Dieing from the horror brought upon Lusternia by the Soulless, and the death and destruction caused by them even after they were imprisoned. They were trapped beneath the earth and in the ice, and in many other places. They then, in their prisons, began polluting the lands around them - I'm assuming the one trapped within the glaciers is polluting the seas outside of Lusternia, and the ones trapped beneath the earth are polluting the nearby lands. Very, very little lives outside Lusternia - much of what is seen out there is probably manifestations of the hatred and destruction and hunger of the Soulless, possibly extensions of Their will, much like the Taint was of Kethuru's. Much as Kethuru created those abominations during the event, so do the Soulless create near them, in and around their prisons.

Now, after a bit of IC hunting, I've discovered there is life outside the Basin. As to what sort, and how well it's alive, I leave up to you to discover on your own. But there is life - perhaps fragile, clinging to existance by a mere thread. Surviving, but not thriving. But it still exists. I guess I'm getting a little off topic here. But, to the point - the Fae were dieing. Ellindel and Glinshari gave them form. Bodies that their spirits could be bound to. As to how Luna, Selene, Glumki, Albion, Lhiannan and Gwyllgi got their form - much of this is still up to debate. I personally entertain the theory that they are each a form of group-soul of the Fae they represent. That is to say, much as Creators made Fish, and an Awakener made a Fae, a collective soul if you will, which gave birth to the Spirit Trout, I believe it worked the same with, say, the Slaugh. Because all of the Slaugh existed, an Awakener gave them a form of group soul, one to lead them, one to be their representative with Mother Night, perhaps - that is, of course, Lhiannan. Again, this is only my personal (and oft wrong) speculation.

Supernals, Holy Emanations, and the rest of the Cosmic Beings are considered half-formed. Look to the histories for a better explanation of this, but essentially, Elder Gods (minus those of the third circle, as far as I can tell) were made in "creches". A strange concept, but think of half-formed as small children, and in these creches, they grew. Eventually they could leave them as fully formed Elder Gods. If they tried to leave too soon, they either died off, or succumbed to an uncurable madness. Supernals and the Demonlords never fully formed, and after being there for so long a time, it seems that it's been hinted at on the forums, they kind of changed. They became, well, different. They will never become Elder Gods, most likely. They've adapted to the creches, and aren't leaving. It's a difficult concept, but think of them as the kids from the Peter Pan stories, and their creches as Never-Never Land. They've adapted to a strange way of life, and have no desire to leave it - or perhaps are incapable of leaving it.

But they're still extremely powerful. What's a couple of spirits got against a group of very angry half-formed gods who've changed a little, then were empowered (argueably) by the Taint?

I hope that kind of answers, well, question 1. =\\ It's both my view on mechanical and role aspects. They could easily be wrong. But that's how I see it, anyway. And a bit extra thrown in.

Question 2

Well, this one is a lot easier. No, I don't see how it is a factor. Unless you're talking balance, but that seems pretty far-fetched, as well. The beings can't leave their respective cosmic planes. The Moon/Night Avatars PROBABLY could leave the Ethereal, but why would they want to? There's just no reason for it. I think you're looking at the whole astrological layering of things a bit off - as well, I just don't see how distance is going to seriously affect anything.

Hope that helps.

Could we get an abstract? I'm not reading that.

Guards + totems = overpowered avatars, making up for the weakness between them and their cosmic (mechanics-wise) counter-parts.

EDIT: That is to say, avatars should be weaker, despite being fewer in number. They're just spirits. The supernals/demonlords are half-formed (with a bit of something else), and are thus stronger, from an RP perspective. Basically, everything you've been saying, with a lot more in-depth personal views, for Tully's sake.

Also, what I didn't post, but meant to - Gwyllgi especially, don't know about the others, were buffed up to withstand Narsrim and Serenwilde's raiding early on, before we had totems and guards. I believe it fair, myself, for them to be weakned.

Last time the Moon Avatars were killed, Gorgulu nearly blew up the entire basin.

You sure you want them vulnerable?

I'd like serious, meaningful posts to such a well-thought out one, but nothing serious can be expected from you.

That said, yes. We're more capable of defending our forest than Glom could ever hope to be.

After actually reading Erion's post, I have to agree, until we get more evidence to go on. To summarize it for you lazy asses...

Avatars = Awakened spirits.
Half-formed = Baby gods.

Thank you. Jasper and I launched into a heavy discussion as to the origination of the Avatars, and it's an interesting theory. I guess we'll see it pan out in the future, RP-wise.

I've got my fingers crossed that someday we'll see travel outside the Basin possible, although I doubt that will come for awhile.

I imagine it would be some sort of vast wilderness area, filled with soulless-possessed monsters and all sorts of other nasties. I want to fight Great Mudd; the only Soulless we ever get to hear about is ol' Kethy-poo.

All Imma say, is let's end the hijack now.

Actually Moon can take a form if she wants, and did so when I first became Patron of the Moondancers.

Moments in history that I've missed make me sad.

I -think- I remember that, but I'm not sure. :/