The funny thing, Terenas, is you let people convince you that I hated your guts when I thought the world of you, and in reciprocation for it, you're making me hate your guts. You're now accusing me of leaving because the guild didn't conform to my beliefs and vision, in the same post while you're shouting at Singollo for thinking it could be interesting to roleplay a particular attitude within the guild? I always thought you were better at handling a rebounding aura than that.

I'm not sure if replacing Athletics with tracking would be that great an idea. Athletics has a good bunch abilities in it that people use all the time and don't really give the credit they deserve.

And, calm down everyone, will ya? Kids...

Heh. Imagine a warrior without surge....

Yeah. That'd be why I personally wouldn't switch most likely, but a larger race, an igasho or something, might do quite well... they already have low intelligence, don't really *require* surge.

And that is kinda the point of having it be an option with Athletics, Lomdomian. Both of them have useful things which may or may not be used effectively. It wouldn't change anything for the Druids, but make a little more sense for the warriors (in my opinion at least).

See? If you cut out the sarcasm, the jabs, the snide remarks, and the petty, child-ish insults, it's almost like he's agreeing with us, Kidaen!

But not really.

Except that, even with his bitterness, he's right.

Well, if you want to cut all those things out, just go back to the earlier messages I posted, you know, the ones that were brushed aside with a glib, insulting dismissal. The sequence is pretty simple. Careful thoughts, complete with warning; pat, insulting dismissal that fit the warning precisely; snide response calling them on it. I have no problems with that.

So, did you have anything to contribute, other than calling the kettle black? Because if that's all you have to offer, you don't have anything to offer.

Giving up Athletics for Hunting would be painful. But I don't think that's unreasonable. Most of the skill choices are between two really cool skillsets that you desperately would like to have both of. I think that's what something like this should be. So I don't think that's a counterargument.

But the real argument for is that it just makes more sense. Hunting isn't exactly an opposite of Athletics, but it's closer to that than it is an opposite to the various things warrior guilds have to trade in for it. One could make a lot of sense of the distinction between the disciplined, inward-focused, "perfect your body" approach of Athletics vs. the primal, outward-focused mysticism of the predator of Hunting. It's kind of similar to how we discussed a few months ago the idea of a heavy-armor knight type of Athletics vs. a quick-on-your-feet ranger type, as a few people wrote up proposals about, in fact. I don't see the similar choices offered choosing against Totems and the city skills as being either as interesting or as appropriate.

In addition, offering it as a choice against Athletics would have worked for all four warrior guilds. And incidentally, it would have avoided the problems discussed in this thread, though that's just gravy.

That said, I don't know what the skills in Hunting are well enough to be able to say if it might make some more devestating combos that way than it does as is, so maybe that's a game balance reason they couldn't do it that way that I don't know about.

Since it's such a problem, Hajamin, can you just yank Hunting, and give druids the option of specializing in one or the other? They obviously don't want it.

What druid is going to take tracking over ecology?

I have no problems with people roleplaying a certain attitude in the guild. My problem is when people start going too extreme and start doing things like denying anyone that took Hunting any leadership positions, considering them inferior or second rate in the guild, thinking they don't follow the guild's ideals, like Singollo had done. Many guild members have already expressed disgust at Singollo's attitude and have considered quitting altogether. If you are thinking RPing a certain attitude that is driving away guild members is in any way beneficial to the guild, then I have nothing to say to you or Singollo anymore on this matter.

If someone isn't as dedicated to the guild, should they be its leaders?

"Probably are not" - key words.

It may often be the case, but not always.

And since when shouldn't people take the help files with some skepticism? They are there to serve as a guide, it doesn't mean we should follow them without questions.

I just want to mention, that your opinionated arguements are just as a valid as the one that says they aren't dedicated because they shrug the gift of the Great Spirits and the lesser spirits. So before you get on the high and mighty OOC pedestal take a STFU cookie. Keep it in game.

And while we are at it, take one yourself.

Where oh where do you see me exerting my IC opinions here, Narsrim?

Edit: Odd double post

I just see you flaming about other people ranting as if it is something out-of-line in forums... and for that, you need to have another stfu cookie and learn to cope with it.

It is out of line, especially when that person is trying to exert OOC influence on an IC situation. There is no reason Terenas should be doing this, especially after telling Gwylifar to stop exerting IC influence over OOC channels. Incidently is the exact same one he expressed on GT.

In fact the entire forum needs to stop this crap, because it does bleed into the game all too much. There really isn't a reason the world should know about the Serenguard internal issues at all, unless they ask and actually recieve an audiance. The fight picking needs to stop (this is directed at you, Narsrim), the in game rantings need to stay in game.