Ceres2005-09-06 07:01:59
But it costs so much power!! 
Sylphas2005-09-06 08:02:33
It's not the power that bothers me so much as the very limited selection of poisons. Granted, anything with mantakaya at that speed would be absolutely insane, and near-permanent/permanent stupidity would be overpowered as well, but it does leave us with one of the most limited pools of afflictions to choose from of any of the afflicting skills (hexes, runes, fetish poisons, telepathy, etc.)
Narsrim2005-09-06 13:57:27
Even though I would agree fetishes are fast, I'm of the opinion that if someone is going to kill you with sap, they could kill you with or without the fetish.
Plus, I think Druids with Dreamweaving have it best because narcolepsy with sap is far more annoying that fetish could ever hope to be.
Plus, I think Druids with Dreamweaving have it best because narcolepsy with sap is far more annoying that fetish could ever hope to be.
Ceres2005-09-06 14:08:12
QUOTE(Sylphas @ Sep 6 2005, 08:02 AM)
It's not the power that bothers me so much as the very limited selection of poisons. Granted, anything with mantakaya at that speed would be absolutely insane, and near-permanent/permanent stupidity would be overpowered as well, but it does leave us with one of the most limited pools of afflictions to choose from of any of the afflicting skills (hexes, runes, fetish poisons, telepathy, etc.)
180704
What the hell.
Do you READ posts?
Geb just told you how to kill people
Narsrim2005-09-06 14:12:55
QUOTE(Ceres @ Sep 6 2005, 10:08 AM)
What the hell.
Do you READ posts?
Geb just told you how to kill people
Do you READ posts?
Geb just told you how to kill people
180821
Right, but if we remove fetish and insert impatience or narcolepsy, we can again see that sap can be quite lethal. Fetishes are nice... maybe too nice... but far from as absurd as some other abilities out there.
How exactly does a druid kill without 10+p each kill though? That's a mystery to us all.
Gregori2005-09-06 14:22:15
QUOTE(geb @ Sep 6 2005, 12:00 AM)
Gregori has shown that the fetish can get as fast as 1.04 on his test when used by a mugwump. His mean recovery was actually 1.3 seconds. Also, there are plenty of combinations that can easily be done with that fetish. Sap is only 8 power. That leaves you open to double afflict with the fetish twice or 3 times considering possible power recovery.
With a correctly timed demesne, you could have your effects hit right before you sap the person. Next you unenemy and then sap your target. You then proceed to use the fetish to try to strip the kafe defense (remember that the average recovery on this thing is 1.3 seconds as a mugwump). You then finish the sequence with webbing the person. If the demesne is timed correctly (not impossible or even very hard to do), the person is paralyzed, has at least one pennyroyal cured affliction, bleeding, asleep with kafe stripped, and sapped. Instead of trying to sleep the person, you could try to shrivel the arms of the person, while he or she is sapped (Fetish speed being good for the attempt).
I think you guys underestimate what a great boon the fetish is. It allows the druid to stay far out of harms way while giving afflictions. It also allows some druids to give double hidden afflictions for one power at a speed that is dizzying.
The fetish alone rivals the entire Rune skill-set in offensive capabilities. Yes you can embed runes in a demesne room, but that is easily lost via the efforts of an enemy mage/druid. The fetish can not be lost, it can be used from extreme ranges, and it can be used at extreme speeds. Yes it has costs associated with it, but runes do too. A high initial power expenditure is required to make a fully realized fetish, but that power cost is trivial considering its long durability. Again, I must state, the fetish alone rivals the entire Rune skill-set in offensive capabilities.
With a correctly timed demesne, you could have your effects hit right before you sap the person. Next you unenemy and then sap your target. You then proceed to use the fetish to try to strip the kafe defense (remember that the average recovery on this thing is 1.3 seconds as a mugwump). You then finish the sequence with webbing the person. If the demesne is timed correctly (not impossible or even very hard to do), the person is paralyzed, has at least one pennyroyal cured affliction, bleeding, asleep with kafe stripped, and sapped. Instead of trying to sleep the person, you could try to shrivel the arms of the person, while he or she is sapped (Fetish speed being good for the attempt).
I think you guys underestimate what a great boon the fetish is. It allows the druid to stay far out of harms way while giving afflictions. It also allows some druids to give double hidden afflictions for one power at a speed that is dizzying.
The fetish alone rivals the entire Rune skill-set in offensive capabilities. Yes you can embed runes in a demesne room, but that is easily lost via the efforts of an enemy mage/druid. The fetish can not be lost, it can be used from extreme ranges, and it can be used at extreme speeds. Yes it has costs associated with it, but runes do too. A high initial power expenditure is required to make a fully realized fetish, but that power cost is trivial considering its long durability. Again, I must state, the fetish alone rivals the entire Rune skill-set in offensive capabilities.
180638
First of all you are assuming that every druid -is- a Mugwump so would be as fast me. Second you are assuming that every druid has Sap. Now while they -can- have it, that does not mean they all do have it. Basing how powerful something is on the assumption that everyone who uses it will fall into this exact criteria does not make a skill overpowered.
Next staying out of harms way while dealing afflictions means just as much as staying out of harms way while slinging runes. If you can't cure you will be messed up. If you can cure it means little.
As Narsrim pointed out though, if you were going to die from a Druid with Sap. The Fetish means very little overall.
Nobody has said that the fetish is not a great boon to Druids. In fact we fully realise that we have been given something that makes us capable to stand up and fight back. However, aside from Mugwump speed, which I already said I agree at 1 second consistent time to be to fast, you are making a bigger problem than is really there. If anything I would be more concerned about smudges than the Fetish, which just goes to show that everyone "heard" what Druids can do and immediately ran to the Forums without actually giving time to see how things turn out.
Unknown2005-09-06 14:27:29
With my faeling eq, I can make a hills smudge, burn it, drop it. I recover eq JUST before it its, so I can trigger it hitting to raise cudgel, and then sap. <3 Smudges are nasty. Swamp, hills, mountain, forest, desert,valley. All of them actually serve a purpose, and damn are they good at them. 
Geb2005-09-06 15:49:06
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 6 2005, 03:22 PM)
First of all you are assuming that every druid -is- a Mugwump so would be as fast me. Second you are assuming that every druid has Sap. Now while they -can- have it, that does not mean they all do have it. Basing how powerful something is on the assumption that everyone who uses it will fall into this exact criteria does not make a skill overpowered.
180829
Overpowered in a mugwump’s hands still makes something overpowered. Just because everyone is not a mugwump, does not mean that those who are will not be made overpowered by it. The full spectrum of possibilities has to be considered when it comes to considering if a skill is overpowered or not.
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 6 2005, 03:22 PM)
Next staying out of harms way while dealing afflictions means just as much as staying out of harms way while slinging runes. If you can't cure you will be messed up. If you can cure it means little.
180829
1 room over is completely different from 10 rooms over. If you can't see the tactical differences, I can't help you.
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 6 2005, 03:22 PM)
As Narsrim pointed out though, if you were going to die from a Druid with Sap. The Fetish means very little overall.
180829
Unfortunately, Narsrim is wrong. The fetish can make a difference, because the fetish allows a druid to get in 3 possible double-afflictions instead of the normal 1 absolute double-affliction that runes would allow. That can make a difference in the equation. With the speed that the fetish is able to achieve even in the hands of a non-mugwump, a person can be put in a condition where he or she is continuously unable to cast cleanse.
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 6 2005, 03:22 PM)
Nobody has said that the fetish is not a great boon to Druids. In fact we fully realise that we have been given something that makes us capable to stand up and fight back. However, aside from Mugwump speed, which I already said I agree at 1 second consistent time to be to fast, you are making a bigger problem than is really there. If anything I would be more concerned about smudges than the Fetish, which just goes to show that everyone "heard" what Druids can do and immediately ran to the Forums without actually giving time to see how things turn out.
180829
Actually, I tested what they can do Gregori. I know exactly how fast they are even in the hands of a non-mugwump and it is still pretty darn fast. Fast enough that the fetish hit me before I regained herb balance. The person in the log is an Aslaran (Level 1-equilibrium bonus). Here is a copy of the log. I wrote over the name of the person, who did it, because I do not know it the person wants to be known.
Person Lastname, Title says, "I think I can get it faster."
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkdb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
Person Lastname, says, "I'm not used to my eq time."
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkdb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
Person Lastname, says, "Want me to try?"
say It is extremely fast
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkdb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
You say, "It is extremely fast."
nod
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkdb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
You nod your head emphatically.
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkdb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
A strange bone creature leaps out of Person's hands and attacks you, slicing
flesh with its wings, and attacks again in a frenzy, slicing flesh with its
wings, then quickly returns to Person.
You blink for a moment, then instantly, all about you is darkness.
You blink for a moment, then instantly, all about you is darkness.
outr myrtle
eat myrtle
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkdb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
You eat a bog myrtle leaf.
The sounds of the world gradually return to you.
outr myrtle
eat myrtle
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxkb-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
You eat a bog myrtle leaf.
Blessed sight returns to you.
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxk-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
A strange bone creature leaps out of Person's hands and attacks you, slicing
flesh with its wings, and attacks again in a frenzy, slicing flesh with its
wings, then quickly returns to Person.
You shrug off the effects of the poison.
You shrug off the effects of the poison.
3841h, 4889m, 3841e, 10p, 15600en, 20160w esSilrxk-|COM|Free!|P RECKLESS!
outr faeleaf
eat faeleaf
You may eat or smoke another herb.
As you can see, a person with a level one equilibrium bonus can beat herb recovery with the use of the fetish.
*darn ansi code cleaning
Narsrim2005-09-06 16:01:40
QUOTE(geb @ Sep 6 2005, 11:49 AM)
Unfortunately, Narsrim is wrong. The fetish can make a difference, because the fetish allows a druid to get in 3 possible double-afflictions instead of the normal 1 absolute double-affliction that runes would allow. That can make a difference in the equation. With the speed that the fetish is able to achieve even in the hands of a non-mugwump, a person can be put in a condition where he or she is continuously unable to cast cleanse.
180868
Have you ever had sap + narcolepsy? In a full demesne, it borders on impossible to cure if they are in the room with you. This isn't taking into consideration that embedded blackout will keep you unaware of anything going on 50-60% of the time; other afflictions like epilepsy, daydreams, etc.
While this is certainly nasty, it isn't as if there was no nasty combinations before Ecology.
I would also note that just sap + vines can keep someone in a condition where he or shie is unable to cleanse.
Geb2005-09-06 16:06:27
QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith @ Sep 6 2005, 03:27 PM)
With my faeling eq, I can make a hills smudge, burn it, drop it. I recover eq JUST before it its, so I can trigger it hitting to raise cudgel, and then sap. <3 Smudges are nasty. Swamp, hills, mountain, forest, desert,valley. All of them actually serve a purpose, and damn are they good at them.
180831
Well you can do that, but you will have to do the smudges on the ground. If you trigger it hitting to raise cudgel, you will be off equilibrium for a bit before you can sap. That would give the person enough time to clean the mud off before you can sap him up.
Just a note: Smudges can not be used in the trees, nor do they hit anyone already up in the trees (unless it was changed recently).
*note: Was reminded that raise cudgel put you both in the trees.
Murphy2005-09-06 16:07:10
passice blackout is bad, and needs to die via getting hit by a bus, or hajamin needs to spill coffee on its server
Nayl2005-09-06 16:07:48
Nope, I'd have to say, timing smudges to hit'll be a bitch.
Treebane'll be hard to time, since, you can't.
Treebane'll be hard to time, since, you can't.
Sylphas2005-09-06 16:18:13
If I plan on using smudges, I'm not going to bother with treebane or treelife, because the timing is a bitch to get down otherwise, and is easily screwed up on their end.
Geb2005-09-06 16:22:15
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Sep 6 2005, 05:01 PM)
Have you ever had sap + narcolepsy? In a full demesne, it borders on impossible to cure if they are in the room with you. This isn't taking into consideration that embedded blackout will keep you unaware of anything going on 50-60% of the time; other afflictions like epilepsy, daydreams, etc.
While this is certainly nasty, it isn't as if there was no nasty combinations before Ecology.
I would also note that just sap + vines can keep someone in a condition where he or shie is unable to cleanse.
While this is certainly nasty, it isn't as if there was no nasty combinations before Ecology.
I would also note that just sap + vines can keep someone in a condition where he or shie is unable to cleanse.
180874
How are they placing narcolepsy and blackout on you? If they have both embedded, then the person can not control which one hits. Most people will have narcolepsy cured before blackout ever hits. If the person is using only one or the other, then he has to puncture the aura of the victim and then cast the non-embedded mote. If the person is using deep sleep first, he then has to wait until he gains one more power to be able to sap.
Using vines on the person still allows the person to escape. Start tumble, see tumble start, start writhe. The writhing process is normally done before the tumble process is finished for an average size and speed race. You can’t tumble when you are asleep though.
All you have stated is possible. It is not as easily accomplished as just using the fetish though, nor are any of your other examples as fast on the recovery time.
Narsrim2005-09-06 16:25:23
QUOTE(geb @ Sep 6 2005, 12:22 PM)
How are they placing narcolepsy and blackout on you? If they have both embedded, then the person can not control which one hits. Most people will have narcolepsy cured before blackout ever hits. If the person is using only one or the other, then the he has to puncture the aura of the victim and then cast the mote. If the person is using deep sleep first, he then has to wait until he gains one more power to be able to sap.
Using vines on the person still allows the person. Start tumble, see tumble start, start writhe. The writhing process is normally done before the tumble process is finished for an average size and speed race. You can’t tumble when you are asleep though.
All you have stated is possible. It is not as easily accomplished as just using the fetish though, nor are any of your other examples as fast on the recovery time.
Using vines on the person still allows the person. Start tumble, see tumble start, start writhe. The writhing process is normally done before the tumble process is finished for an average size and speed race. You can’t tumble when you are asleep though.
All you have stated is possible. It is not as easily accomplished as just using the fetish though, nor are any of your other examples as fast on the recovery time.
180889
With blackout embedded, it isn't hard to puncture and give narcolepsy withou the target even knowing they have until it is too late. While fighting Borca recently (even though he's a geomancer), I was literally blackedout 50-60% of the time. During this time, I ended up with a pierced aura and he slipped in narcolepsy easy. There is no reason a druid shouldn't able to adapt this own strategy and use the ridiculous blackout times to sap you and build from there.
On a side note, let's adjust sap/vines to sap/trample. We are talking four mending applications before you can cleanse. Plus with treelife/treebane, you are going to be passively gaining broken limbs.
Geb2005-09-06 16:26:36
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Sep 6 2005, 05:25 PM)
With blackout embedded, it isn't hard to puncture and give narcolepsy withou the target even knowing they have until it is too late. While fighting Borca recently (even though he's a geomancer), I was literally blackedout 50-60% of the time. During this time, I ended up with a pierced aura and he slipped in narcolepsy easy. There is no reason a druid shouldn't able to adapt this own strategy and use the ridiculous blackout times to sap you and build from there.
On a side note, let's adjust sap/vines to sap/trample. We are talking four mending applications before you can cleanse. Plus with treelife/treebane, you are going to be passively gaining broken limbs.
On a side note, let's adjust sap/vines to sap/trample. We are talking four mending applications before you can cleanse. Plus with treelife/treebane, you are going to be passively gaining broken limbs.
180890
Ask Borca how well that worked on me... Do you know how slow the recovery on trample is? Also, you can't ride a mount in the trees. You would then have to wait till tree bane dropped the person and then trampled. The person can still tumble, mending while in the process of tumbling, and then stand up to cleanse.
*One of these days I will learn to write with impeccable grammar, sentence structure and without spelling errors. Just not today it seems.
Narsrim2005-09-06 16:29:01
QUOTE(geb @ Sep 6 2005, 12:26 PM)
Ask Borca how well that worked on me...
180891
It didn't work on me either. However, it was far more annoying than any fetish could hope to be. In the same light, I've done some testing with a fetish and while annoying, it isn't that bad to keep up given you shrug 33% of the blasts. As a Mugwump, that's 2 afflictions in 3 seconds. Plus, they seem to be fixated on whoring sleep which is the most ineffective strategy to date thanks to insomnia/metawake.
Sylphas2005-09-06 16:30:38
Unless you're at all smart, and just used levitation. And if you didn't, valley smudge is going to hurt like hell.
Ceres2005-09-06 16:34:39
Sensei Sylphas.
Geb2005-09-06 16:38:25
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Sep 6 2005, 05:29 PM)
It didn't work on me either. However, it was far more annoying than any fetish could hope to be. In the same light, I've done some testing with a fetish and while annoying, it isn't that bad to keep up given you shrug 33% of the blasts. As a Mugwump, that's 2 afflictions in 3 seconds. Plus, they seem to be fixated on whoring sleep which is the most ineffective strategy to date thanks to insomnia/metawake.
180894
It could also be an average of 4 afflictions every 3 seconds at mugwump speed, if the person uses the bezerk mode of his fetish (for the low cost of 1 power per use). The range could be from 0 to 6 in that 3-second period for me. The average player will probably experience affliction rates more on the upper end of that range though. The average player does not have transcendent resilience like you and me.
