We just did that with the whole northen Serenwilde. 248 lumber, I believe.

And yes, the Hartstone need to stop being hypocrites. People shot down plans for a ritual involving killing deer, yet people kill plenty looking for the proper familiar, or just for "pretties" in our guildhall. Hell, Ialie was accused of teaching the ways of Glomdoring for that ritual.

If the druids want to become treehuggers, I will step down and become a Moondancer in a second. Hartstone should not be snuggly hippies.

For the record - Kalo has nothing against killing deer ritualistically. In fact, Kalo thinks it's perfectly fine. Narsrim asked Kalo while he killed a buck, and Kalo told him that it was an honor to die in the prime of your life, instead of growing old and sick.

Given that the White Hart calls upon Serenwilde to delve into Glomdoring and rescue his children (deer), I think it is somewhat strange to randomly shoot said deer with a cudgel until it bleeds to death in the middle of the Hartstone grove.

Well, at the same time, it's wierd for a Moondancer and a couple of druids to defend Celestia.

Not really. Narsrim's motivation to defend Celestia is that he utterly despises anything remote Magnagora-ish and acts in a manner to see them suffer. Furthermore, he is a member of Lord Hajamin's Order, and is basically told that to push the Order's agenda, he needs to help Celestia.

Narsrim could care less about some silly angels hence he slew Ceres's angel when she joined a Seren FFA recently.

Being starved and sickened living in the taint is far different to being slain once a decade or so in a ritual for the Hartstone.

The deer that are starved and sickened in Glomdoring are to be rescued not slain. Once they return to Serenwilde, the White Hart sets them off into Serenwilde to grow strong and become healthy. Given that White Hart is most represented by the Hartstone, I find it rather silly they would in turn kill one of his children... after he puts so much effort into seeing them safe and healthy.

I think it is also worth noting that the White Hart was formed by the collective soul of the deer... wtf would you chip away at that?

That is silly. Guess what. Deer do die. There are predators in the forest that hunt them. They die, they are eaten, their meat can be taken to the villages to be processed, they can also be used for leather. Even the centaurs killed a deer to make leather for Gwylifar's damn drums.


The body of the deers die, they have to. All things do infact die it is their souls that live on. They are reborn.


If Whitehart was affected everytime some deer died. That would be a counterbalance to the circle of life anyway. They are prey. They are not exlcuded from the ecosystem.


Have you ever worn leather Narsrim? You never know it might have came from a deer.

In the same light, you don't see Moondancers slaying Fae just because we can take them down in a newbie kick. Why? We are servants of Mother Moon and the Fae.

The Hartstone are servants of the White Hart... and slaying a deer some silly non-functional purpose (as in you aren't even making use of the corpse) and writing is off as a ritualistic slaying is just wrong.

Fae are different from dear. Fae are spirits of nature given physical form. They are not part of the ecosystem.


Even the centuars who have been close friends of the druids have hunted deer. This is the same argument that since herbs are plants that we shouldn't be picking them. Or that trees are sacred we shouldn't be mulching them.

Also just because the ritual doesn't have a clear purpose that isn't defined by code that is already in game doesn't mean there is no purpose. Killing them for the ritual does have a purpose.

Look, if you want to accuse Elryn of being snuggly, fine. I know you can make an argument that Druids aren't really forest mystics, they're more like tribal hunters who just happen to know a few tricks about surviving in the wilderness. If we go that way, well, so be it.

But please give us these other options so we aren't being forced to become lumberjacks for the sake of the economy. I want to play a Druid who speaks with the trees, worships them. So I don't have to treat them like a resource for profit. (Which is what they oocly are.)

Edit: Incidentally, I agree with you Narsrim. But it really is up to the majority wishes of the guild.

I'm not saying that hunting deer to use it is wrong. However, slaying a deer (as Kalodan did when I lectured him) for no reason falls under disrespectful to White Hart (at least to me). Furthermore, I think that sacrificing a deer when you in fact worship one asks you save his children borders on retarded.

When was the last time you saw someone who regarded cows as holy eating hamburgers or coating himself in cow blood? I don't think anyone would take him or her too seriously if he or she did.

I completely agree that we shouldn't be growing trees for the sole purpose of mulching them. That'd be a city thing. We're not farmers, we're hunters and gatherers. If we need wood, we mulch Glomdoring. <3

But, hunting deer is a part of hunting and gathering. If we raised them solely for hunting and killed every last one when they reached a certain age, that's just disrespectful.

But killing the occasional deer for food/clothes/etc, is fine. Same with mulching trees. But if we're just growing them so we can have books and chairs and beds and thrones - we've got a serious problem.

I am not one to use real life reasons to justify actions in a fanstasy world. But Native americans would always hunt and comsume the meat of their prey, making sure to use the entire corpse to honour the creature's spirt.

They also didn't transform themselves into deer (Stag form anyone?), protect a giant deer from harm, etc. In sum, they didn't really view a deer as a "holy" creature anymore than anything else. It was a part of their world but certainly not a major focus where it was the absolute top spiritual thingie they worshipped.

Now, I would hope the Hartstone do

It's not that he did it for no reason - he just doesn't explain himself. Ever.

And, I don't know if the Hartstone are so much White Hart's servants as the Moondancers are of the Fae. We follow His teachings and help Him - but Hart also teaches us to find our own paths, not just the ones we're expected to follow.

Hart knows that death is a natural place in life - as is being hunted. As servants of Nature, we're all supposed to respect all Nature Spirits, and respect them all - so no fishing, no hunting, no killing of animals or taking from trees. They're a part of Nature. They give to us, and we give to it.

Well, actually, several cultures throughout history have slain animals whose spirits they share a close bond with and honor greatly. While it is not commonly accepted in todays world, animal sacrifice in reverence of nature and the animal used to be quite common. I'm not sure how it's considered bad if once a year a deer is slain in ritual to in some way honor what we follow. Furthermore, trying to bring logic into spirituality is just silly. People who follow faiths have rituals and practices that, logically, make no sense and perform no positive action in the real world. In my mind, a yearly sacrificial ceremony would not be out of role, and really not a bad idea. I rarely see us all getting together for anything besides learning a new skill or getting to the bottom of some mischief someone allegedly caused.

Oh, and I'll have to look it up, but I know of at least one group of Native Americans who believed that at one point long ago, all humans were changed into the animals that populate the earth now, and so therefore are their ancestors, with whom they hold great respect with. And many believe that when they die, they are transformed into one.

Then what is the point of defending him if he is attacked? He is quite a mighty deer and capable of defending himself. Yet, I remember Serenwilde flipping out when Valek tried to lead a part to attack him (and even at that time, he wiped out anyone who attacked him almost instantly).