Ok before this gets railroaded into a nerf the skills thread. Let's discuss the underlying problem.

It is fairly safe to say that level 3 balance or level 3 speed is far to much for most skills. Mugwumps are quickly becoming the race for combat because they can attack faster than people can cure anything. I think the specialised races need a serious look at.

Mugwumps lowered to level 2 EQ, raised +1 con, and lower their weaknesses. Making them a still very viable race to play, but not the equivilant of a Rajamalan Sentinel with an axe.

Elfen should be looked at because aside from roleplay there is no reason for a Druid or Wiccan to select the Elfen race if they hope to accomplish anything in combat. Why be a specialised Elfen when any Mugwump is a far better choice? I would look at High Elfen as offering them a level 1 EQ, making them a more viable race to play for Druids/Wiccans.

Merian are extremely weak on the health department, and could really use a bone tossed their way. +1 con at Imperial Merian, and lower weaknesses.

I don't know much about Magnagoran races, so I can't fairly judge their balance issues versus non specialised races.


Feel free to flame me and say I have no idea what I am talking about now!

I'd like to point out that Mugwumps are only *slightly* faster with level 3 equilibrium now than they were with level 2 in the past because bonuses were softened. As a result if Mugwumps fell to level 2 eq, they would be slower now than they were before the initial upgrade.

I don't see how it is fair for every other race to get more or less massively upgraded and then Mugwumps turn around and get reduced to being slower than they were to start off with.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't have any problem with Faeling having level 3 balance (even though I personally wish the bonus could be put somewhere else ) because their strength is so low.

That is why he is asking for their other stats or weaknesses be looked at to compensate. Many people recognize that Mugwump eq is way way too good, not to mention they greatly overshadow all of the mage/druid/guardian specialized races.

The reason that Guardians are not interested in specialized races has to do with the fact that they suck arse - hardcore. They will be no more appealing if Mugwumps are slower, it will simply mean that our options are even less useful. Let's take a look:

High Elfen (base): 17 int, 12 dex, 11 con
High Elfen (deffs): 20 int, 12 dex, 12 con

Elfen Lord (base): 15 str, 13 int, 16 dex, 14 con,
Elfen Lord (deffs): 19 str, 16 int, 16 dex, 15 con

Imperial Merian (base): 18 int, 10 dex, 10 con
Imperial Merian (deffs): 20 int, 10 dex, 10 con

Merian Lord (base): 16 str, 13 int, 14 dex, 15 con
Merian Lord (deffs): 19 str, 15 int, 14 dex, 16 con

==========================================

Does anyone else notice that Guardians/Wiccans have the option of high intelligence and low dex and low con whereas Warriors have the option of high strength, high dex, high con, and high int?

It is obvious that everyone is picking Mugwump because the race is far superior to the specialized races. No one is going to pick them until they are up to par and reducing Mugwumps to level 2 equilibrium won't establish that. It will just make those Mugwumps out there a little bit slower.

If specialized races are intended to be focused, they need to be *better* not make everything else worse.

get rid of knowledge and war blessings as well! or at least dont let them stack. *nod me*

I agree that the specialized races need to be made better. But that doesn't negate the point that Mugwump eq at the moment is *way* too good. I do not see how you can refute this issue, being able to permanently web someone with average size, being able to lash/wane in around 2.5 seconds, or able to hex at one second per after drawing for only half a second each. That is rediculously overpowered, you cannot deny that.

As a follow up on my last post, I'd like to compare speed-to-speed:

Wiccan Mugwump (deffed): 18 int, 14 dex, 11 con

- level 3 equilibrium bonus

- level 3 fire weakness (exploited by elemental runes)
- level 3 electricityweakness (exploited by elemental runes)

=======================================

Aquamancer Mugwump (deffed): 17 int, 14 dex, 10 con

- level 3 equilibrium bonus

- level 3 fire weakness
- level 3 electricity weakness

=======================================

Serenguard Aslaran with Stag (deffed): 16 str, 16 int, 17 dex, 13 con

- level 2 balance bonus
- level 1 equilibrium bonus

- level 2 fire weakness
- level 1 heal slowly from elixirs

=======================================

Ur'guard Aslaran (deffed at night): 17 str, 18 int, 16 dex, 13 con

- level 2 balance bonus
- level 1 equilibrium bonus

- level 2 fire weakness
- level 1 heal slowly from elixirs


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In the end, Knights can achieve rather nasty speed when using a fast weapon coupled with the Aslaran race. With surge, the high intelligence of the race can be directly substituted into health, which basically erases any low health weakness.

On the flip side, Mugwump Wiccans/Mages/Druids/Guardians have high intelligence but that's it. They are incredibly suspectible to damage and as a result, most die to strong knights in a couple rounds of combat.

Why is it fair for Knights to be able to get massive speed (level 2 balance bonus, good strength, fast weapons), still be able to tank (thanks to surge with the high intelligence), etc... but it is unfair for Mugwumps to be slightly faster and far weaker?

Furthermore, I don't understand how everyone else was able to deal with high speed afflictions in other IRE games, but the idea of someone being remotely fast here is scary. We are basically forced to accept that Ixion can kill 90% of the mugwump species in two lunges... wtf should other classes have that sort of potential, but no one else?

yeh nars, stop trying to make mugwumps not look as overpowered as they are by diverting the attention elsewhere!

I think my biggest issue is that knights are able to negate constitution entirely and substitute a high intelligence score in place of it. No other class has this option so it is only fair that they be able to make up for it in other ways.

As a level 75 Mugwump, Kariol could get ~8,000 some health with tosha and knowledge blessing.

I'm level 89 Mugwump, I can get ~4.5k with the same.

Everything adds up. A holistic approach is necessary to evaluate if they are indeed too powerful.

I wish my stats were all like 15-20, but they are not. My only advantage is speed... that's it.

This is basically true. Elfen are weak, and I think +1 eq would be justified. I'd actually rather see them with some other upgrade, but I'm a biased furrikin, so eh. High Elfen are bad. I just recommend constitution upgrades, incidentally.
Mugwumps are overpowered. Speed is way too much. The "fairness" in nerfing mugwump and buffing other races is that ... mugwump need nerfing and the other races don't.

Merian I guess have the same problem as Elfen, but I dunno.

What I find weird is the fact that almost all races are suited for warriors.

Without taking specialized races into account, warriors can choose between Aslaran, Dwarf, Igasho, Krokani, Loboshigaru, Orclach, Tae'dae, Taurian. That's 8 races.

Dracnari can be good for warriors and mages/guardians alike.

Basically, what is left for magic users are pretty much mugwumps and lucidians. And that's it.

This is a rather misplaced rationale. Given that one can be either a Mugwump or an Elfen, there is no justification to weaken one to strengthen the other. Furthermore, a level 1 equilibrium bonus wouldn't fix the problem of High Elfen. For High Elfen to be remotely decent, it would need something like +2 dex, +2 con, and level 1 equilibrium, etc. Look at Elfen Lords...

And as I said, if Mugwumps were reduced to level 2 eq right now, they would be SLOWER than they were pre-race upgrades.

Thank god for people like you. I've been screaming this forever. It has to do with the fact that they can substitute high intelligence for consitution. We find that races with high int tend to have low con and vice versa. They can by pass this.

1. Elfen are a specialised race. They are not very good. Mugwump are not a specialised race. They are too good. So yes, there is justification to weaken one to strength then other...

Pleeeease strengthen Elfen so I can annoy Shiri! And Mugwumps are just plain scary.

How are they "too" good? The rate of delivering afflictions in Lusternia is very sub par to Imperian... in fact, it doesn't come close; however, people there are expected to be able to handle them and guess what - they do. Even with my nasty hexes, Daevos shrugs them off with good healing like they are nothing. It isn't like it isn't possible. I tried to locked him over and over in a recent FFA and he didn't slow down at all.

Furthermore, there is no reason that given how poor High Elfen are, they could not be adjusted and Mugwumps just left alone. If you are suggesting we weaken Mugwumps so people will be more opt to select a crappy race like High Elfen, you are stabbing Wiccans in the back with a knee jerk by skewing the reality that they do indeed suck by decreasing something that doesn't.

While that's not exactly what I meant (expanded my earlier post), that's also true.