Debating is much less essential than actually influencing. Also Debating is a choice, either defensively or offensively. It is not hard to avoid. Also with quicker influencing the chance of having to debate to influence any denizens is greatly reduced since you can win your battle much quicker.

Edit: Basically makes a multiple fold disadvantage for having low natural charisma no matter your skill. Higher chance of encountering resistance while influencing(debate), Higher vulnerable to debate(lower ego and slowness to change mindset while debating or influencing), and Higher time required and difficulty to influence denizens(no need to explain). Now I agree that charisma should offer a bonus and it once did in two areas, endurance and power. I just disagree that speed was also necessary, and would like that speed be determined by something else.

The evidence showed that speed was greater than all other considerations before the change, because the person could influence again before the denizen requested a response. That being said, I suggest the bonus damage greater charisma gives should be removed and placed under the Influence skill-set. I still believe high charisma races should have a significant advantage, and it has already been shown that speed gives a greater advantage than increases in ego damage caused by increases charisma.

Just a comment from me: I think the speed shouldn't be influenced by charisma, whereas the height of the damage should be influenced by charisma. I mean, think about it logically.

That's how it should be, IMO
A person like a Mugwump should be able to talk things very fast because they think very fast. They might not hit hard because they aren't pretty or anything, but still.
Whereas someone with high charsima, like an Elf, can it pretty darn hard, but talks a bit slower because he thinks slower.

And how it is now:
Mugwump, very ugly and usually is very fast from the brain side is still slower in talking than an elf.
An Elf, who thinks slower hits harder and faster than a Mugwump.

That's not logical...


Okay, my post sounds very weird, I'll try to edit it as soon as I am not tired anymore.

I would prefer if it wasn't changed back to influencing being effected by racial eq bonuses, but still believe that charisma shouldn't effect it. But I agree with your point that it makes no sense, realism wise for charisma to make you a quicker arguer.

Perhaps not, but balance wise it does. Simply put, the charisma races are suppose to have a bonus in that area, and speed was found to be greater than all other considerations. Therefore, the high charisma races should have the speed bonus. The damage bonus can be moved in my opinion into some other area, removing your original complaint about all of the advantages being on one statistic.

From the change in your line of argument, I get the impression that your true complaint is your side will have a disadvantage in influencing. Well, each side has a disadvantage in certain areas. You will just have to learn to deal with yours, as everyone else has had to learn to deal with theirs.

It makes no sense balance wise either, since village influencing is much more essential for the advancement of an organization than any military engagement. And it is for that reason that laetitia was downgraded.

My point has always been that the change unbalances the game since it increases the natural disadvantage that a specialized race has in one of the most integral aspects of the game. It has never changed, and you should know that from our arguments on BS.

Faelings = 13-16 charisma naturally
Elfen = 12-16 charisma naturally
Merians = 11-15 charisma naturally
Viscanti = 9-12 charisma naturally

In my opinion, influencing is too important to be so significantly balanced against any one organization. And speed effects alot of aspects of influencing, even little things like the ability to divert steal a denizen to influence. Since if you can't recover quick enough to even have chance to influence before your opponent does, there is little no purpose to divert other than to frustrate them unless you have assistance from another diverter.

Also disagree with the premise that charisma did not offer enough of a bonus in influencing before.

Care to provide examples?

Ok.. so.. in the realm of combat, a fighter will decimate an influencer... however, in the realm of influence, you don't want the influencer to decimate the fighter?

Laetitia may have been weakened, but it is still a huge advantage over the communes - where faeling and elfen are common, while Merian have total crap for con, meaning, if its not peaceful, you're going to decimate them.

Also, Kaervas proves that a Master Viscanti can up to 17 charisma, he said its nearly as fast as Mugwump, while the coders said mugwump speed was like, 21? Obviously that little bit isn't enough for Kaervas to notice, so, it seems your team is still fully able to be fast enough that it isn't an issue.

The difference is the complexity of combat over influencing. No one stat decides the advantage in any fight. And even superior stats does not equate martial superiority. The same can not be said of influencing.

That statement is horribly flawed, Daevos.

Murphy as an orclach before he self-nerfed his flails would kill most faelings in a SINGLE combo because of their low constitution. Clearly, that is quite an advantage.. and what do the little butterflies get in return? The ability to beat orclach Murphy silly in a debate/influence match.

Actually if you would give the matter more thought, you would realize that you just proved my point about the complexity of combat. Murphy had to buy artifacts for that damage, and there are artifacts to increase tankiness, by boosting max health as well as health regen. There is also the fact that Murphy had to spend hours upon hours forging to get those high damage weapons, which he had Roark decrease in damage in exchange for precision. His assessment of the vulnerability of faelings to his artifacts also presided the increased defensive skills of Psionics, Ecology, Astrology, as well as the downgrade to elemental runes. And I remember him actually lamenting the fact that Laysus could easily tank his damage a few months ago.

I don't understand what does that have to do with the matter at hand...


If Laetitia was only available to Magnagorans, that could counter the charisma handicap I guess. But it's not.

And, wow, I didn't know Merians are that crappy and just get decimated in combat.

They pay with constitution for the highest intelligence in the game. They get eq bonus too, while Viscanti have lvl 2 sipping disadvantage.

And Merian warriors get +5 str and con. 15 con is not low.


And Merian will get 20 with the same effort, your point?

Ok, Daevos, how about this

Get a trans blademaster brood Viscanti, have him get a pair of Bob's longswords and see how many combos it takes it kill a faeling of equal level with no defences.

Now, in return, get that faeling to debate the brood Viscanti.

Who is going to win faster? The Viscanti.
Who is going to lose more for losing? The Faeling.
Is it a single stat that makes the difference in both cases? Yes.

You stated that it was because it placed all of the advantages on one statistic. I have agreed with you, and now suggest one of those advantages be moved (damage bonuses). Now your problem was not actually that it is all on one statistic, but that it was speed on that statistic. That should have been the line you argued from the start.

Also, you should have offered up your complaint before, because a merian has always had an advantage speed, damage, and endurance wise compared to a viscanti. Even so, the mugwump speed advantage showed undeniably that speed was greater than all considerations. Even though mugwumps had a relatively lower ego damage potential (The amount unknown though) and lower ego endurance, they were still far superior to all the high charisma races and the specialized races at influencing.

If you have a better idea on how to fix the problem, I suggest you sit down and write up a solution. A solution that actually gives high charisma races a recognizable advantage in influencing, because they quite frankly did not have one that was easily determinable in the past besides a higher ego. Mugwumps still were able to defeat denizens in influencing far easier than Elven, Faelings, Tae'dae, and even Imperial Merians (who have their own level one equilibrium bonus).

Beauty karma blessing = +2 charisma

Throne = +2 charisma

High magic skill = +1 charisma

Populus = +1 charisma

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nihilist Viscanti potential charisma: 18 (19 with a good fortuna, 20 with a truefavour). This still leaves out Astrology so in theory, a Viscanti could get the max influencing speed.

Ok then, give me a shadowlord faeling with Bob's longswords and trans blademaster against that brood viscanti, both of us level 75, and see how many combos it takes for me to either decimate him or survive until one of us runs out of curing essentials.

Bob's longswords aren't taking me down, I'm pretty sure.

Cult member, I really don't think you understand combat good enough to be comparing these two things. Combat has countless varibles, whereas debating is can basically be seen as rock,scissor,paper. You compare a brood viscanti with cheap swords to a faeling debating? Are you drunk!?!? Equal level yet the faeling has no defenses? I really think you are being irrational and don't understand what you are saying... Oh and I would never suggest Viscanti for a Nihilist who has any intentions of fighting.

Daevos > Shadowlord Faeling is not based around charisma.. so.. that argument means nothing.

Torak > the lack of defences is to make a point that, on the base, they are even.

Viscanti with longswords attacking a faeling with no defences.
Faeling with trans influence influencing a viscanti with no defences.

Faeling gets stomped because of constitution.
Viscanti gets stomped because of charisma.

Sounds fair to me.