Envoy Changes

by Xenthos

Back to Common Grounds.

Unknown2005-09-20 00:37:55
QUOTE(Laysus @ Sep 19 2005, 07:36 PM)
Also useful for bashing, pk on prime, etc.

Also, I can see why it was taken as a seperate suggestion. You didn't even say "To balance this out..." You just listed three suggestions to change the skill. rolleyes.gif
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As he said, he'd suggested them as an overall balance. I agree though, it could have been better worded. I blame myself for not pointing it out! glare.gif
Gregori2005-09-20 00:38:16
Quite frankly I am disappointed. Our familiars were already useless for anything other than a free death. Now they are still useless, and twice as likely to get us killed as before. No sane druid will ever deepbond now, and as I said it is a sad case that if the suggestion was taken piecemeal it didn't raise any eyebrows on its own merit.
Laysus2005-09-20 00:41:24
Yep, and it's your own suggestions that caused it. Maybe you can ask them to change it back next time around? tongue.gif
Unknown2005-09-20 00:41:40
QUOTE(Laysus @ Sep 20 2005, 12:36 AM)
Also useful for bashing, pk on prime, etc.
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Bashing on prime, yes. So if anyone under level 40 has trans ecology, they'll make good use of it.

PK, no.

POOKA FORCE ELRYN BOND RECALL. Elryn can't do a thing about it. Unless Elryn runs away, familiar appears, two hits later Elryn dies.
Gregori2005-09-20 00:42:10
QUOTE(Laysus @ Sep 19 2005, 06:36 PM)
Also useful for bashing, pk on prime, etc.

Also, I can see why it was taken as a seperate suggestion. You didn't even say "To balance this out..." You just listed three suggestions to change the skill. rolleyes.gif
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And yet it was shown to multiple people, including other envoys who all understood that it was an overall suggestion not a piecemeal suggestion. That in exchange for stronger familiars, transmigration would be limited to same plane.
Laysus2005-09-20 00:45:11
Personally, if I looked at it, and saw three numbered points I'd think "Ah, three seperate suggestions."

Edit: Plus, it's done now, no point crying over spilled milk *shrug*.
Unknown2005-09-20 00:47:06
QUOTE(Laysus @ Sep 19 2005, 07:45 PM)
Personally, if I looked at it, and saw three numbered points I'd think "Ah, three seperate suggestions."
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And this is why you're not in charge of the envoy reports, probably. smile.gif
Xenthos2005-09-20 00:50:01
QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith @ Sep 19 2005, 08:47 PM)
And this is why you're not in charge of the envoy reports, probably. smile.gif
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Maybe he should be- he obviously has a better connection with what the people who make decisions on it see than some others wink.gif
Estarra2005-09-20 00:50:34
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 19 2005, 05:42 PM)
And yet it was shown to multiple people, including other envoys who all understood that it was an overall suggestion not a piecemeal suggestion. That in exchange for stronger familiars, transmigration would be limited to same plane.
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It wasn't clear to me.

Anyway, bottom line is that druids are not designed to have strong entities. They have enough passive effects as it is, plus their totem mount. This is a balance issue and suggestions that try to give druids more passive effects will likely be turned down.

Familiars in Ecology make fine spies and enhance RP (in my opinion) as well as giving a couple of very beneficial effects. They were never meant to give much advantage in combat and, if you step back and look at the overall druid design, I think you may agree.

For combat, Ecology relies on fetishes and smudges. If you think Ecology is weak in combat, there is where we would most likely make changes. However, I simply don't think Ecology has been out long enough to make a good determination of whether it is underpowered or overpowered.
Unknown2005-09-20 00:53:10
QUOTE(Estarra @ Sep 19 2005, 07:50 PM)
It wasn't clear to me.

Anyway, bottom line is that druids are not designed to have strong entities. They have enough passive effects as it is, plus their totem mount. This is a balance issue and suggestions that try to give druids more passive effects will likely be turned down.

Familiars in Ecology make fine spies and enhance RP (in my opinion) as well as giving a couple of very beneficial effects. They were never meant to give much advantage in combat and, if you step back and look at the overall druid design, I think you may agree.

For combat, Ecology relies on fetishes and smudges. If you think Ecology is weak in combat, there is where we would most likely make changes. However, I simply don't think Ecology has been out long enough to make a good determination of whether it is underpowered or overpowered.
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Since the idea for Gregori's suggestion was obviously misinterpreted, due to a miscommunication/representation, is there any chance we could have the alleged 'upgrade' returned to it's previous state? In this instance, we're simply BEGGING for a 'downgrade'.
Ialie2005-09-20 00:54:42
QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith @ Sep 19 2005, 07:53 PM)
Since the idea for Gregori's suggestion was obviously misinterpreted, due to a miscommunication/representation, is there any chance we could have the alleged 'upgrade' returned to it's previous state?  In this instance, we're simply BEGGING for a 'downgrade'.
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Aye please... I beg of you Estarra....
Unknown2005-09-20 00:55:29
While you're at it, give Trackers Conceal? pray.gif
Unknown2005-09-20 00:56:42
QUOTE(Cult Member @ Sep 19 2005, 07:55 PM)
While you're at it, give Trackers Conceal? pray.gif
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Go ahead and do BOND CONCEAL. It does the exact same thing ours does, minus the large mana loss. LAME. OVERPOWERED, NERF.
Gregori2005-09-20 00:58:24
I do not think Ecology is weak in combat. I nfact I love the skillset incredibly. I think Familiars are a wasted commodity in the sense that they had nothing to them other than as a means to not lose xp. They had potential for more, but the fact that anybody level 5 or higher could instakill an ecologist made them lacking. Even as spies, they were limited in this sense, as they could not go anywhere without being seen (granted this suggestion was partially upgraded), but again killing them was simple, and harmful to the Druid. Not as harmful if the druid wasn't deepbonded but almost every Druid -would- deepbond. Again I would not have suggested a standalone nerf like this, without something to make them stronger. Hell I would have accepted a constitution upgrade to them just to make it more difficult to kill them. I can't really understand why it would be thought that Ecologists would just want them downgraded so heavily with nothing in return.
Unknown2005-09-20 00:58:56
Will there be any upgrades to Dreamweaving as a result of these envoy reports? Because if so, it might start to look more enticing again.
Unknown2005-09-20 01:00:53
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 19 2005, 07:58 PM)
I do not think Ecology is weak in combat. I nfact I love the skillset incredibly. I think Familiars are a wasted commodity in the sense that they had nothing to them other than as a means to not lose xp. They had potential for more, but  the fact that anybody level 5 or higher could instakill an ecologist made them lacking. Even as spies, they were limited in this sense, as they could not go anywhere without being seen (granted this suggestion was partially upgraded), but again killing them was simple, and harmful to the Druid. Not as harmful if the druid wasn't deepbonded but almost every Druid -would- deepbond. Again I would not have suggested a standalone nerf like this, without something to make them stronger. Hell I would have accepted a constitution upgrade to them just to make it more difficult to kill them. I can't really understand why it would be thought that Ecologists would just want them downgraded so heavily with nothing in return.
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Apparantly, it was looked at as an upgrade. If you wanted to transmigrate, you brought your pet. If you didn't, you'ld conglute. Sadly, it seems lacking IMHO, as one would simply just not deepbond if they didn't want to transmigrate.
Unknown2005-09-20 01:03:23
Maybe--as a possible compromise, if the admins feel transmigrate should be downgraded--transmigrate works on Ethereal and MAYBE elemental, but never on a Cosmic or Astral plane. That would keep them more grounded to the realms they are supposed to be caring about.
Unknown2005-09-20 01:05:36
QUOTE(Phred @ Sep 19 2005, 08:03 PM)
Maybe--as a possible compromise, if the admins feel transmigrate should be downgraded--transmigrate works on Ethereal and MAYBE elemental, but never on a Cosmic or Astral plane.  That would keep them more grounded to the realms they are supposed to be caring about.
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...You've obviously not read this thread. At all. Or the discussion on it. Like, at all at all. Even the previous post. It was given as some strange concept of an UPGRADE. glare.gif
Unknown2005-09-20 01:08:01
No, I was reacting to the fact that from Estarra's last post she made a statement about a "balance issue", so I assume they're not going to reverse this change. I presented an alternative in case they felt like compromising based on feedback.
Gregori2005-09-20 01:08:20
I can even accept the fact that Familiars were not meant to do heavy passive damage considering the other passive effects and abilities. ~100 damage passively can be helpful. ~100 passive damage from something that gets you killed instantly cannot be.

As it stood previously, the cycle was this:
kill animal
rebirth animal
deepbond animal
lock animal in stockroom and never take it out
rinse and repeat as needed.

Yet they were given a small passive attack, and ability to spy, and made about as hardy as a wet paper bag. Implying that they were meant to be used for other things, but there was no point in doing so.

I would much prefer a backtrack to the original transmigrate and accept the fact that they are nothing but a cute decoration.