I'm trying to say you can't balance between 3 different classes by simply saying "Warriors have too much health and can't die to damage, so let's nerf them!" Warriors have a lot of limitations just as other classes do, sometimes it is much greater because our offense can be entirely disabled. I don't want to be able to absorb or dodge spells, and I don't think anyone should. But if you want to give everyone a version of Surge, then why just not reduce all of combat down to just kick, punch, evoke void, evoke pentagram?

Hmm, I suppose that's true, perhaps I'm just being biased because I'm not in that group and not everyone else is level 85+ and has a torc

If only absinthe worked outside of dreaming.

Edit: Oh! I forgot protection scrolls. Now mages & druids have to deal with rebounding-like shields, we can get surge.

I'm not even asking for a Surge lookalike. I recognize that warriors have limitations and everything. But you have to agree that whether or not offenses are balanced between classes, warriors have a tremendous advantage when it comes to defense that no other race/class can match.

Yup, and when you can't wear armour on your head, and you have < 3k health (hello average merian), a blademaster lungeing for your head, cutting through "all the defences against a warrior", is all fine and good. Yup!

Aqua demense sucks ass. I've discovered this. What I /really/ should've done is gone Geomancer because then keeping someone in your demense actually means something.

And people. Do not use Geb as your standard measuring stick for Aquamancer. He's a Mugwump with the champion artifact, possibly trans all stuff affecting staff damage, probably with some magic damage artifact. This is like us saying Geomancers need nerfing because of Kaervas.

Because as many people have said before:

* magic users need high int unless they're going for something like tanky geo to keep someone in the room long enough to pull off chasm;
* there's no combination of high int race with high con
* being able to fight knights requires high combat, or you won't be dodging anything;
* being able to tank knights also requires high resilience or you're going to take a lot more damage

Warriors:

* benefit from high dex, high int and high con. Maybe even str, I don't know anymore
* there's plenty of races to choose from which have a combination of reasonable to high str, con, dex and int
* only really need to learn magic against some stuff, there's plenty of resistances to magic damage available
* can wear much better armour than everyone else on top of that

I dunno. I must be doing something wrong with combat. But really, the only examples I've ever really seen of people who /excel/ as the two classes I've fought as (Celestine, Aquamancers) have either/both champion artifact and some other artifacts. I've never come across someone who was had a good name without em.

Yeah, I'd like to emphasise the fact that there are VERY effective ways to hinder a mage/druid.

Protection and Love, anyone?

Well Morik, really how many people excel without arties, be it any class? I only know a handful of those in the whole of ire.

What arties does Terenas have?

(And Amaru never used to have the handmaiden, and he still beat people.)

He has as much as I do

You missed the point though. I did say there are people like that, but there are only a few of them. A guild having no fighters who do good without any arties, doesnt really mean anything because there are only a few people who actually are top teir fighters and dont buy arties.

I gotta say that one rocks compared to the old sucky one with the boulder popping out of the end.

Who knows. I know of more than a handful. The ones I do know then bought artifacts and became mostly unstoppable.

I don't mind it being hard. In fact, I don't mind it being very hard. What I really don't like is that this specific change seems to make it almost impossible to beat any surged warrior unless you're a mugwump with the fruit (blessings, etc) and, if you happen to be a mugwump, hope that you don't die in head lunges before they get you.

I'll stop now. I guess time will tell how this will par out. I really hope that the people involved in this change looked at more than the top echelon of Aquamancer damage, because the rest of us non-perfectly-ideal-single-race are pretty darn screwed.

Go Ur'guard, Kaervas.

In other news, I bloody loathe it when people say that there are "so many ways to stop knights, boohoo". You can raze separately with each arm, lunge through all defences, stances, parrying, etc..

What the hell more do you want?

Well, you are conveniently forgetting that lunge and crush go right through rebounding, parrying, and shielding. You also fail to mention that warriors regain balance twice as fast when missing, hitting rebounding, or hitting the shield. Last, you neglect to state that warriors can raze with one hand and slash with the other, easily maintaining a certain level of health and wound damage in the process. Yes, for the low cost of two power, you can easily by-pass many of the hindrances that you are complaining about. Can a mage use 2 power to staff through a person's shield? Simple sipping love (forcing a rejection if the mage wants the demesne to keep hitting the enemy), shielding, webbing, and nerve damage can stop a mage in his tracks just like any other class. Have you also forgotten that scrolls are available now to give protection against some of the more potent effects of demesnes? Or, how about the disruption scroll that will allow you to remove the supposed greater tankiness of mages with psionics (Also leaving the mage off-balance for a time period between 4-8 seconds.)

During my fight with Alger, I do not remember him shielding once. From what I can tell, it is like warriors feel they should not have to shield. They seem to have this attitude that they should just be able to cut a mage down for the win. Even when they are low on health, a few shields would easily save them. Heck, since their health is so high, most of them would sip a great amount just in the time shielding would give them. You guys want to know why the fight between Marsu and I went on so long? It was because we both would move and shield when we got low (What a novel idea, eh?). Heck, Terenas evokes a pentagram religiously when he needs too, and that is why he survives.

There are plenty of hindrances that can be used against mages. Those hindrances seem to be far more effective when used against mages in their demesne than when used on any other archetype. I easily know what to do when I run up against another mage or druid in his demesne, and still come out the victor more times than not (Even with my normal health that is less than ½ Terenas’ surge level). I can hinder other mages in their demesne, far easier than I can hinder warriors. Yet warriors are sitting here telling me how hard it is on them to take 1300 damage with more than 6k health (while I take an average of 1100 damage when I have my normal mugwump health of 3.2k).

Well, you are conveniently forgetting that two handers have nothing like Lunge or Crush. And most of our attacks are swings, and so we can not even accurately target them. Also you fail to take into account entanglement, and the fact that it stops our offense almost completely, since most of our offense is active. Also since most of the races best suited for warriors are large in size, we are doubly penalized in that area.

What rubbish.

I don't think you can say warriors have it that tough. Mages and guardians don't really either, but making out warriors are completely at the mercy of a novice skill like web is going a bit far.

You have Cleave.

You have diminish enchantments.

No, I did not fail to mention them. Those same hindrances can be done to mages too. Webbing will stop a mage; sipping love will stop the demesne effects. Also, you are trying to tell me that the ability I heard about that allows you to raze and damage a person in one attack is false?

In regard to lunge/crush, first off, we never wanted them to go through shield, we're actually asking for that to be changed back. Secondly, believe it or not, stance actually negates lunge, I had missed on more than a few occasions with lunge.

As for love potion, how hard is it for you to illusion to force someone to drink choleric to cure it right off? Or how fast can you dissolve a protection scroll? It takes twice as long to put it up as it is to take down.