I do agree that with Surge warriors can reach some high health, but you have to realize in Lusternia, everything is a lot higher than anywhere else. Normal Spell-casters in other IRE games can't climb over 20 Int without level 3 artifacts. Hell, look at level 3 EQ recovery, it's utterly BS, you can't even reach level 2 EQ without a Diadem on Achaea. If you're going to be comparing about warrior's health, then why aren't we complaining about Psionist's Forcefield, that's better than Surge since you can use all of your ego to absorb damage and there isn't any constant mana drain (which I can only keep up nearly full with a level 2 mana regen).

Frankly I wouldn't miss Surge very much if Warriors were half as good as hindering other people elsewhere. Give me my 100% poison affliction rate here and make Precision also helps with Accuracy, make Mages unable to reach 20+ Int, get rid of level 3 Mugwump EQ, then I'll gladly just stick to Transmute to fight.

If it's not going to be removed, give it some other drawback besides mana drain, because as it is there's no reason not to have surge up except when fighting a guardian. Giving it something that mages can exploit would make it much less unbalanced.

If you have surge up against a speed warrior, you'll lose it within seconds due to having 0 mana.

Seriously, if you want to remove surge, remove line-of-sight staffcasts, 200 room demesnes, lvl3 eq mage races, forcefield and 1 second line-of-sight double venoms, as well. If you seriously think warriors are overpowered compared to the other archetypes because of surge, you've absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Take a step away from the bias and put down the crackpipe.

I agree with all these changes.

I am not an advocate of removing surge, just of tweaking it a bit, so a surged Mugwump doesn't have the same amount of health as an Igasho or the like. I think its slightly too strong as it is, but also an essential part of a warriors skills (unlike puissance).

A couple of flaws in your statements, Sylphas.

The Forcefield for Psions has already been brought up, but there's also Absinthe for Dreamweavers, which converts ego into mana and health.

Aside from that, Mages can actually be incredible as other races. Nayl/Amaru have shown that Lobo work for both Druid and Guardian, and have you ever played a tae'dae psion? Igasho work as mages/druids too. Igasho druids can take rockeaters at lvl 15 without shielding, and have heard of Igasho aquamancers doing similar.

Now, you might say "Hey, that's bashing, not pk!" I'd say its a good enough example. Mages/Druids have demesnes, so somewhat slower attacks really don't matter if you can work towards something. You druids say all the time you need to land sap to kill anyway, so, what's the big deal about an extra fraction of a second on your attack? And, as for Hartstone, you guys have a use for strength with Stag - as Gore does decent damage when used by a tae'dae or igasho. Or with Shadowdancers, against players, Nightkiss isn't int-based, while Narsrim showed that dwarves could kill as Moondancers.

You say Mages/Guardians can't be good as anything other than a few high-int or speed races.. but.. you're just plain wrong.

You speak as if said Mugwump Warrior has a remote chance killing anyone decent. Having high health doesn't make you a great fighter. In Achaea I've killed Dragons with over 6k health with rapiers, so I don't see what the problem is.

Ah, right. So you're just saying that INT is entirely worthless unless it gets you more health?

Brainfreeze today, Sylphas? He's saying mugwumps gaining a lot of health due to surge doesn't matter, since they can't kill anyone as a warrior anyway. Hence mugwump warriors suck..

That is what I was replying. Nothing to do with Mugwump warriors, Thorgal. If we can be good as anything but high int or high speed races, there is NO reason to be a high int race. Absolutely none. Why? Because if we can succeed with crappy lobo int, why go for more, and sacrifice tankiness?

I believe the race/stat/skill balance seriously needs looked at, and Surge is a major part of this.

I honestly don't care what you other archetypes think about surge in relation to you. The skill is suppose to give us a benefit toward you, what benefit is gained if it drains mana and osme other problem? I think it's too powerful in relation to smaller races, and is not at all beneficial in any circumstance toward igasho and whatnot. They need a benefit from it.

And fighting with surge is a real gamble at times, You have to think. Against a druid, do I risk running out of mana for clot/focus spirit/ focus body/ all the time, against moondancers/nihilists etc, do you risk getting absolved or otherwise run out of mana far to easy. Against speed warriors, if you surge, you will run out of mana to clot, as is often needed, and against damage warriors, you HAVE to surge most the time. It's really all just subjective anyways, no sense debating it. Until a time that a druid has 20k health, can dish out enough damage to knock knights out in a few rounds, have uber demesne that paralyzes, webs, passivly aeons, casts judgement, allows them to transverse at will, and calls the souless down upon the warrior, devouring them instantly and forever so they cant log in again, were going to here them bitch and moan

Actually I am quite happy with the Ecology changes and think they helped Druids quite a bit. Some of the skills are not working as they should, and we hold onto the hope that they will work eventually, but overall you haven't heard Druid's complaining about their demense for a long time. In fact I have seen more knights comment on the cudgel change being stupid for Druids and they should have gotten lightning instead of blunt, than druids complaining about it.

For all those who think Surge is unbalanced, let's look at all the drawbacks it has

1: 8 power cost, doesn't even compare to Nightkiss or Drawdown which only takes 2 more power

2: A killer mana drain which is hard for the low int classes, and must have a perfection enchantment at all time

3: The mana it converts into Health also leaves you at a serious weakness to Guardians and Mages, also Guardians with Wrack and Absolve can easy pick you off

4: Like Thorgal said, if you used surge against a speed knight, it would be gone within seconds

With all these drawbacks, how can you say Surge is unbalanced honestly?

Asarnil, Diamante:
Fine, 7-8k without artifacts and -all- blessings, I guess you consider that low?

For speed bonuses, I concede, I forgot that they were nerfed (though I imagine lvl 3 is still the fastest in all other games. No, I don't want to compare Lusternia with other games, but fundaments of combat are the same for all of them).

And I'm not sure why you point the fact that everyone can get it. If you didn't notice, I was talking about Lusternia as a whole, how it becomes all about topping stats with all available bonuses and getting extreme advantages even without having to buy artifacts. So extreme that power feats, which one would suppose should be the top skills (but somewhat balanced by power requirements) pale in comparison.

It was just an overall reflection.


That's weird because everyone seems to be under an impression that surge is designed for warrior vs warrior combat, not to give you benefit toward other classes.


No need to be sarcastic, consider how much work and effort has been put into warriors and how they're being worked on even now. You even got a test server just for the sake of revising warriors stuff. It's probably the most caressed class in Lusternia. Look at what you get and ponder the fact that half of the population can be killed by you hitting one macro before you accuse everyone else of moaning about upgrades.

Im not complaining at all. I know that knights get a lot of loving, that goes without saying. And yeah, I can kill half the population in one macro cause a) half the population has no idea how to stay alive, or has absolutely no health. But there are plenty of things one can do to hinder a knight. Granted, the slash slash/trueheal/ slash slash, thats a biggie, but its a one time use and is already being looked at. but I hardly every use that, except in a need to end something quickly cause it means life or death for me.

I just listed all the drawbacks to Surge ~.~

Well, I don't know. To hinder you, someone needs to actually stay alive after that macro of yours.


You did, but take a look at the original post. Rafael wanted to have them removed (well, except the power cost).

I believe the mana reduction should be reduced a little, but the other drawbacks remain the same