Not sure which post is more wrong- yours or Sylphas's. I can count on one hand the knights who have ever had 10k health. And right now, only one knight hits 10k surged, and he's a titan with a level three torc and usually struts around with at least two karma blessings and a constant tosha one. See Thorgals above post for a grasp on reality.

On another note, if one moondancer or one sacraments user is present, or in a druid demesne, knights would be foolish to surge. Viscanti surges simply suck, as well.

I agree with Ixion here, and have a question for all those who want to get rid of surge. We only have 3 good skills in Athletics, and one of the three is decent. Immunity, Surge and Adrenaline. If you get rid of surge, Athletics will have nothing left

Then Athletics needs upgraded. This is a stupid argument. I've always been an advocate or removing overpowered skills and making the rest of a subpar skillset decent, but it never happens.

Surge is not overpowered in any way shape or form, you have not brought any facts that it is overpowered. Me and the others have listed all the drawbacks to Surge and you still call it overpowered? Stop comparing surge with Mugwumps and Merian knights, which are only found in the communes because of nightkiss and moonburst.

And my chainmail also protects only from physical damage, not magical or elemental.

I don't know what's your point with "vitality is alright". I never said it isn't, it's just one of factors of your increased tankiness.


Like I said, 8k then, it's not the point. You can get 10k with appropriate race and utilizing all posibilities, but let's settle at 7-8k as quite easily attainable. Point is it's still near twice as much as I can get.

EDIT: What does Adrenaline do?

I do. The only reason Mugwumps make good warriors is because of how you can utilize every single stat. Meaning the races can't be balanced by, say, giving them high con/low int, or high int/low con, or anything else. Stat affecting skills of all types in Lusternia are too strong, I think, and Surge especially.

And really, I might be convinced that it's ok as is, I realize it does have drawbacks. But some people are arguing that those drawbacks should be diminished? It seems that whenever someone has a problem with a skill, people try to make it out to be as underpowered as they possibly can, when it's ludicrous to do so.

I just want Surge to be left alone, the drawbacks and advantages kept in place with nothing done to it

And? You have loads more mana than any surged knight making YOU tanky against mana drain and mana req instakills. It's not like surge is specific to one nexus. Every city/commune can get it. I fail to see any real imbalance- simply because you can't kill knights with damage isn't reason to nerf a skill.

Except I can't turn half of my ego to mana if I fight someone other than psionic, so I can't be killed with mana instakills just like you cannot be killed with damage (also, you need 0 health to drop dead, while instakills work at 50% so it wouldn't be that much of an advantage anyway).

And I don't think someone who doesn't rely on draining your mana would care about the mana cost you have to endure.

Thank you for supporting my points.
-Knights cant turn ego into anything.
-When I die, it's often to sheer damage
-And 50% instakills are incredibly powerful



I guess not everyone read your post, Thorgal. So here it is again.

Except.. mugwumps do not make good warriors in the slightest.. have you ever seen a single good mugwump warrior? No, there never was one, there isn't one and there never will be one.

Serenguard Moon could make a good mugwump knight.

Use moonburst for kills, and surge for tankiness.

No mugwump can ever kill someone tanky with trans magic, using only moonburst.

Mugwump ebonguard with Night might work damage-wise, if the opponent doesn't have hold breath.

If that sounds all so wonderful and great, then perhaps you should look around to see how many Mugwump warriors there actually are? Everything looks great on papers and in theories, but when it comes to actual application it's a whole different story. If you think it's such a wonderful combination, Mugwump warrior, then you should become one and kick everyone's ass. The fact that only one person has ever tried being a Mugwump warrior (Kariol) but never even bothered picking up a weapon to use shows just how feasible your assumptions are.

You seemed fairly potent as an unspecialized merian warrior, Terenas. Isn't a mugwump warrior the same idea as a merian warrior?

Mugwump warriors are the upgraded form of unspecialized Merian warriors. Remember people telling Terenas he should just go Mugwump back then.

I would say no Nihilist or Celestine should complain about surge since it makes it so easy to kill any knight who is using it, high level hex users don’t even have to worry much hit anorexia use any web skill, then use your draining skill and its done. I’m a Celestine and I have had knight stupid enough to use surge and with my angel hitting paralysis and anorexia on the first hit I used 2 quick amissios and the match was done. I believe that surge is completely balance and is good for warriors since I have yet to see any guardian accept wiccans kill with damage and there is no need when you have 3 viable instant kills. Mages have a demense which almost every mage does good damage and has some type of instant kill to fall back on that they don’t need. Also with me now knowing the drawbacks to surge thanks to Shiro i say it is perfect the way it is.

I have yet to hear of anyone but Geos instakilling routinely. Also, druid demesne does crap damage, and I'm not sure about Aquas.

I see geos use instant kills all the time maybe not aquas but the option is still there. I dont fight druids often but do to the clotting and focus body the knight will be doing i doubt there surge will last long.