Most of what's important has already been covered, but I'll throw in that from personal experience it's foolish to play as a Master Viscanti for anything except RP reasons.

After having spent a stint as a Human, and trying to bash again as a Master Viscanti, the sip penalty was truly horrifying. Considering that Nihilists cannot Taint areas, and thus cannot rely on the Taint regen to help us in any situation at all, it's a devastating malus to have.

I think what's often overlooked in this topic is that it isn't possible to simply snap your fingers and make your racial regen terrain magically appear, save for 1 out of 3 guilds in every city/commune. Racial regen is a nice bonus for Mages and Druids, but should not really be a balacing factor when looking at the other 3 archetypes.

I disagree. It strongly encourages group combat, or at the very least teamwork...which is a good thing. I like Lusternia more so than the other IRE ventures because they encourage people to work together so much. I just find it more fun and interesting.

Regardless of your personal preferences for solo v. group combat, in team combat it makes demesnes even that much more critical. The group which holds the demesne, or whose demesne the fight is occuring in, is going to have the advantage of racial regeneration on top of all the demesne effects.

You're essentially arguing that "teamwork (or team combat) = fighting in your own demesne." That is about as far from the truth as you can get, and were it the case would make for an incredibly boring combat style.

Further, you are assuming that all teamwork should, by default, involve a Mage or Druid. Guardian/Warrior, or even Guardian/Guardian or Warrior/Warrior, should not be viable combinations to have? I don't think relying on 1 (very small) guild in order for Viscanti to be up to par is a particularly great design concept.

For the record, merians don't regenerate in Aqua demesnes.

I'm glad someone pointed this out. I hope it's a bug - every other city/commune's specialization regenerates in their natural terrain, including that which is raised by their mages.

I assumed it was design, honestly. The water's too shallow or some such.

I wasn't aware of this, but it's really irrelevant because nobody is trying to argue that Merian disadvantages (low con, elemental weaknesses) are counterbalanced by their water regeneration.

The consensus does seem to be that Merians should be thrown a bone by lowering elemental weaknesses.

As I said earlier, comparing Viscanti to Merian is really uninteresting. Since they both have significant weaknesses. It always come down to a debate which suffers the most. The vast difference in specialized races comes when you compare Viscanti/Merian to Elfen/Faeling.

Pretty sure you have to deluge the water first, otherwise it doesn't do anything to help regeneration.

Seriously, recipe for balance:

* Set viscanti taint regen to lvl2, their sipping penalty to lvl1 and increase their charisma with 2 points.

* Set merian elemental weaknesses to lvl1.

OR

* Nerf elfen lord stats.

And for mugwumps, either lower their equilibrium advantage to lvl2 without compensation, or drop their intelligence to 12 without compensation, just like faeling have a lvl 3 balance advantage and very low strength.

High balance, low strength..

High equilibrium, low intelligence..

The first proposal is better.

There's still an issue with Viscanti's charisma though.

Not really.

Yes there is.

Thorgal, go run the math on what the master viscanti would look like with a lower sip penalty. Bad idea. I think I speak for most of the merians in the world when I say they'd rather have their elemental weakness raised before seeing the viscanti sipping bonus reduced. Give the broods another point of intelligence or constitution, fine. Give the masters anything and we'll have problems. They're already the most versatile guardian race out there.

Ignoring the faelings for obvious reasons, the elfen lords have the lowest strength and constitution of the specialized warrior races. Viscanti have the highest. Elfen have...high dexterity. Woot? Oh, and that resistance to psychic damage is a killer.

Basically, they just want the Viscanti to have no drawbacks in spite of their obvious advantages.



The numbers highlighted are the Brood Viscanti and Elfen Lords high sip at level 75. HUGE DIFFERENCE there, eh?

Actually, it is. I do think the broods could use another point of intelligence or constitution. I just don't think the sip penalty is the way to fix things.

So you agree that Elfen should have some disadvantages to balance their obvious advantages, good to know.

I just want to see all specialized races balanced well against each other. And good enough to offer incentive for players to choose those races over others by a significant margin.

It displeases me to see so few Viscanti in Magnagora. Especially since I wish to see much more involvement in the creation and restoration of great houses in the city.

I don't really agree with that, but you're STILL ignoring the Geomancer Viscanti.

Just go mugwump like all the other mages!

Then more Mag players should adopt your style and go with a race for rp reasons over powergaming. Most go for the race that will accentuate their class over history. I'm sticking with Elfen because Malicia is proud of her heritage. I don't see many Elfen Lords either and I'd like to also.

Daevos, from the chart it seems that the Brood Viscanti penalty is not a huge deal. You want to see the Elfen take a hit. What are the Elfen's major strengths, in your eyes? Compare advantages. There are Stag Elfen Lords..oh wait. There aren't. There's only one. Me. Elfen Lords are evened out, but they have no edge in any area. They're decent. For the longest time, we were considered the weakest of the specialized races. Now, we're the best? Why slap a penalty on us, when we have less STR and CON then the Viscanti? We have no NATURAL cutting/blunt protection.

Daevos, you are a tank. I don't get it. Fullplate, putre, lichdom stats, level 1 cutting/blunt resis and all you get is a level 2 sipping penalty. I fail to understand your reasoning. Nothing is every truly balanced, I will agree, but I can't see how the Elfen Lords are so extremely amazing. Max 18 STR after defs, without geburah. Overpowered?