Daevos2005-10-02 15:47:40
QUOTE(Xavius @ Oct 2 2005, 09:07 AM)
Ignoring the faelings for obvious reasons, the elfen lords have the lowest strength and constitution of the specialized warrior races. Viscanti have the highest. Elfen have...high dexterity. Woot? Oh, and that resistance to psychic damage is a killer.
197361
I guess you have no idea about the significance of dexterity for warriors, it effects you chance of afflicting with wound. To illustrate that point, someone will extremely low dex can hack at someone head repeatedly while it is a critical and have little chance of beheading. While someone with high dexterity can sever off their opponent's head with relative ease. Also Elfen have the the same strength as Viscanti and Merian if they just learn one of their novice skillsets, Totems. Bear gives them 1+ strength.
Daevos2005-10-02 15:54:33
QUOTE(Malicia @ Oct 2 2005, 10:46 AM)
Then more Mag players should adopt your style and go with a race for rp reasons over powergaming. Most go for the race that will accentuate their class over history. I'm sticking with Elfen because Malicia is proud of her heritage.Â
Daevos, from the chart it seems that the Brood Viscanti penalty is not a huge deal. You want to see the Elfen take a hit. What are the Elfen's major strengths, in your eyes? Compare advantages. There are Stag Elfen Lords..oh wait. There aren't. There's only one. Me. Elfen Lords are evened out, but they have no edge in any area. They're decent. For the longest time, we were considered the weakest of the specialized races. Now, we're the best? I don't see many Elfen Lords either. I'd like to. So why slap a penalty on us, when we have less STR and CON then the Viscanti? We have no NATURAL cutting/blunt protection.
Daevos, you are a tank. I don't get it. Fullplate, putre, lichdom stats, level 1 cutting/blunt resis and all you get is a level 2 sipping penalty. I fail to understand your reasoning. Nothing is every truly balanced, I will agree, but I can't see how the Elfen Lords are so extremely amazing. Max 18 STR after defs, without geburah. Overpowered?
Daevos, from the chart it seems that the Brood Viscanti penalty is not a huge deal. You want to see the Elfen take a hit. What are the Elfen's major strengths, in your eyes? Compare advantages. There are Stag Elfen Lords..oh wait. There aren't. There's only one. Me. Elfen Lords are evened out, but they have no edge in any area. They're decent. For the longest time, we were considered the weakest of the specialized races. Now, we're the best? I don't see many Elfen Lords either. I'd like to. So why slap a penalty on us, when we have less STR and CON then the Viscanti? We have no NATURAL cutting/blunt protection.
Daevos, you are a tank. I don't get it. Fullplate, putre, lichdom stats, level 1 cutting/blunt resis and all you get is a level 2 sipping penalty. I fail to understand your reasoning. Nothing is every truly balanced, I will agree, but I can't see how the Elfen Lords are so extremely amazing. Max 18 STR after defs, without geburah. Overpowered?
197388
Malicia, the chart is skewed, for one it only shows health sip, two there is a large amount of variance in it, and three you just showed the high sip. So actual application in the real world is hard to ascertain. At level 86, I usually sip health for 600, and mana/ego for much lower.
Just because you have chosen the best combination for Elfen Lords, does not make them weak. With Moon, their strength can not be denied. If you scrolled back a couple of posts, You would see my stats if I was that race and class. I would be much stronger as a Elfen Lord not only offensively but also defensively with no sip penalty and the protection of drawdown.
Malicia2005-10-02 16:04:12
I never said that the Elfen were weak and I read the entire thread. I saw your stats. Drawdown is powerful but isn't lichdom? I'd compare those and say, 'There's your balance, right there.' Weapon aura makes up for lower STR, but the answer to every situation is not to switch totem specializations. You can't just exclude elfen lord stag followers because of Moon's power and potential.
Daevos2005-10-02 16:20:06
Lichdom's main strength is it evasion component. Otherwise it is more of a half full half empty cup skill. It offers no defensive bonuses other than a slight regen at night and actually weakens us during the day.
These are my stats right now with Lichdom, Strength, and Yellow:
Strength: 17 Dexterity: 12 Constitution: 18 Intelligence: 9 Charisma : 9 Size: 15
And these are my stats during that short time in game which is considered night:
Strength: 20 Dexterity: 12 Constitution: 18 Intelligence: 11 Charisma : 9 Size: 15
compared to my stats as a Elfen Lord with have no variance:
Strength: 19 Dexterity: 16 Constitution: 15 Intelligence: 14 Charisma: 13 Size: 13
The use of surge would also allow me to easily surpass my Viscanti health while maintaining a decent amount of mana. So in all ways I would be better. 19 consistent strength is much better than 17-20 varied. And the dex is just godly. Drawdown is also extremely powerful defensively and it has no maintenance cost or drawbacks.
These are my stats right now with Lichdom, Strength, and Yellow:
Strength: 17 Dexterity: 12 Constitution: 18 Intelligence: 9 Charisma : 9 Size: 15
And these are my stats during that short time in game which is considered night:
Strength: 20 Dexterity: 12 Constitution: 18 Intelligence: 11 Charisma : 9 Size: 15
compared to my stats as a Elfen Lord with have no variance:
Strength: 19 Dexterity: 16 Constitution: 15 Intelligence: 14 Charisma: 13 Size: 13
The use of surge would also allow me to easily surpass my Viscanti health while maintaining a decent amount of mana. So in all ways I would be better. 19 consistent strength is much better than 17-20 varied. And the dex is just godly. Drawdown is also extremely powerful defensively and it has no maintenance cost or drawbacks.
Malicia2005-10-02 16:37:52
For the 100th time, the Elfen Lords are a good, sturdy race. You should note that Elfen with lowmagic only get max 18 STR. We have -3 CON than you do at any given time. Elfen stags get 17 DEX in stagform, which is good. I'm not trying to be close minded here. Your main complaint has been your sipping penalty, which I believe was there to balance your other racial advantages, necro abilities and CON. Would giving the Elfen a sipping penalty even things out, in your opinion?
Xavius2005-10-02 16:43:34
QUOTE(Malicia @ Oct 2 2005, 11:37 AM)
For the 100th time, the Elfen Lords are a good, sturdy race. You should note that Elfen with lowmagic only get max 18 STR. We have -3 CON than you do at any given time. Elfen stags get 17 DEX in stagform, which is good. I'm not trying to be close minded here. Your main complaint has been your sipping penalty, which I believe was there to balance your other racial advantages, necro abilities and CON. Would giving the Elfen a sipping penalty even things out, in your opinion?
197415
Think of the High Elfen before you say evil things like that.
Sylphas2005-10-02 16:44:21
Elfen Lord might be able to handle that, but you'd have to be a masochist to be a High Elfen with a sip penalty.
Daevos2005-10-02 16:45:40
For the 100th time, the Elfen Lords are the best warrior race, and they have no disadvantages. You should note that Elfen with low magic have a max CON of 16. Which is only 1 less CON than any Viscanti who took high magic. And with the sip penalty of the Viscanti, there can be no argument in that scenario which is significantly tankier.
My main complaint is that the specialized races are not equally strong in different ways and I wish they were. Both city races suffer from significant disadvantages while the commune races don't. But I personally don't wish to see Elfen downgraded, though giving you our sip penalty would no doubt change your opinion on them fast.
My main complaint is that the specialized races are not equally strong in different ways and I wish they were. Both city races suffer from significant disadvantages while the commune races don't. But I personally don't wish to see Elfen downgraded, though giving you our sip penalty would no doubt change your opinion on them fast.
Cwin2005-10-02 17:10:13
Perhaps one of the problems here is a similar one that's being thrown about Charisma: too much strength in one stat.
By how it looks, Races tend to have either high Str and Con or High Dex and Int. In some races, the only real pain with them is that they "are as strong as a piece of paper", due to their Con.
However, Surge, apperently, can overcome a low Con so long as the race has high Int (and usualy, Low Int will mean high Con). In races like Mugwumps, who just don't have much power to them as a fighter, it's not an issue (again, just looking at fighters). Add in a strong enough Dex/Str and..well.. you have this situation.
Given that, why go for a race with good Con and low Int/Cha when you can get one with High Int and comparable Str/Dex and just Surge when the extra HP is needed?
Thus I'll throw another question in, if Surge didn't exist (this is just theory, no need to defend the need for Surge just yet) would Elvens and Faelings hold as well as a Viscanti realy?
By how it looks, Races tend to have either high Str and Con or High Dex and Int. In some races, the only real pain with them is that they "are as strong as a piece of paper", due to their Con.
However, Surge, apperently, can overcome a low Con so long as the race has high Int (and usualy, Low Int will mean high Con). In races like Mugwumps, who just don't have much power to them as a fighter, it's not an issue (again, just looking at fighters). Add in a strong enough Dex/Str and..well.. you have this situation.
Given that, why go for a race with good Con and low Int/Cha when you can get one with High Int and comparable Str/Dex and just Surge when the extra HP is needed?
Thus I'll throw another question in, if Surge didn't exist (this is just theory, no need to defend the need for Surge just yet) would Elvens and Faelings hold as well as a Viscanti realy?
Thorgal2005-10-02 17:14:48
QUOTE(Daevos @ Oct 2 2005, 06:45 PM)
For the 100th time...
197419
I'm guessing you're argueing with Malicia here? I bet you start to feel why I can't help myself but to start insulting, since that's the only thing getting through, god bless ignore.
Malicia2005-10-02 17:16:59
Thorgal, at least Daevos can argue the issues without being an ignorant jerk like you. There's never really a need to insult the person when trying to argue ideas. Everyone wants the best. People actually care about it, which is good for Lusternia as a whole.
In short, little Thorgie, learn some self-control and then post. I doubt that you have me on ignore. You can't help yourself.
In short, little Thorgie, learn some self-control and then post. I doubt that you have me on ignore. You can't help yourself.
Daevos2005-10-02 18:34:05
QUOTE(Cwin @ Oct 2 2005, 12:10 PM)
Thus I'll throw another question in, if Surge didn't exist (this is just theory, no need to defend the need for Surge just yet) would Elvens and Faelings hold as well as a Viscanti realy?
197452
In the case of the Faelings, the lack of surge would make their low constitution much more clearly felt. And likely lead to the greatly decreased desire to be that race. Unlike the Elfen they do not have access to any active or passive healing abilities to further increase they ability to survive. They also lack a skill as good as Drawdown to significantly increase their defense. So they would be forced to depend solely on their sip to survive. Which would be especially difficult against other warriors.
In the case of the Elfen, the effect would be much less significant. Although, they would be forced to choose Moon, which would give them access to several defensive skills. Both Lash and Waxing being usable to actively heal their health while Drawdown's defensive strength can not be denied. Their constitution is also relatively high with a base of 14 which can be raised to 16 with the use of Weathering and Yellow.
Sylphas2005-10-02 18:35:49
A Warrior using Lash to heal? WTF are you smoking Daevos?
Daevos2005-10-02 18:37:40
It's possible, and even tactically viable in situations where you want to drain your opponent's mana.
Sylphas2005-10-02 18:57:26
It's more of a bonus when you're draining mana, not anything to rely on.
Vix2005-10-02 22:37:36
Doesn't Nightkiss also protect against damage? Also, waxing has a semi-long eq time I only use it to heal when I'm not in the same room as the mob I'm bashing. I've heard rumors that it doesn't heal as much as Puella anyways, but I'm not entirely sure.
Terenas2005-10-03 01:17:11
Daevos- If my chart is so skewed, go make your own then to prove your point. You are not presenting any new information besides constantly complaining that being a Brood Viscanti sucks and that Elfen Lords are ungodly. If that was truly the case then you should perhaps take a look around to see how many good Serenguard fighters are actually Elfen Lords.
You using the rationale that Serenguards have Lash and Wax as active healing method is laughable. Why would you use Lash to heal yourself when you could use Waxing? Yes, I'll Lash someone to heal by 200 health instead of using Waxing to cure myself up to 1k+. You have Puella too, which prior to its nerfing was unbelievably fast and can be done while proned and hindered.
Gosh, after reading all the stuffs people are putting up about how great Elfen Lords are, it almost makes me want to reincarnate into one, just almost.
You using the rationale that Serenguards have Lash and Wax as active healing method is laughable. Why would you use Lash to heal yourself when you could use Waxing? Yes, I'll Lash someone to heal by 200 health instead of using Waxing to cure myself up to 1k+. You have Puella too, which prior to its nerfing was unbelievably fast and can be done while proned and hindered.
Gosh, after reading all the stuffs people are putting up about how great Elfen Lords are, it almost makes me want to reincarnate into one, just almost.
Shamarah2005-10-03 01:27:27
Hey, Guido!
I think this topic calls for a new Herald...
I think this topic calls for a new Herald...
Malicia2005-10-03 05:10:14
QUOTE(Terenas)
Daevos- If my chart is so skewed, go make your own then to prove your point. You are not presenting any new information besides constantly complaining that being a Brood Viscanti sucks and that Elfen Lords are ungodly. If that was truly the case then you should perhaps take a look around to see how many good Serenguard fighters are actually Elfen Lords.
You using the rationale that Serenguards have Lash and Wax as active healing method is laughable. Why would you use Lash to heal yourself when you could use Waxing? Yes, I'll Lash someone to heal by 200 health instead of using Waxing to cure myself up to 1k+. You have Puella too, which prior to its nerfing was unbelievably fast and can be done while proned and hindered.
Gosh, after reading all the stuffs people are putting up about how great Elfen Lords are, it almost makes me want to reincarnate into one, just almost. Â
You using the rationale that Serenguards have Lash and Wax as active healing method is laughable. Why would you use Lash to heal yourself when you could use Waxing? Yes, I'll Lash someone to heal by 200 health instead of using Waxing to cure myself up to 1k+. You have Puella too, which prior to its nerfing was unbelievably fast and can be done while proned and hindered.
Gosh, after reading all the stuffs people are putting up about how great Elfen Lords are, it almost makes me want to reincarnate into one, just almost. Â
Almost?! Bah to you, Terenas!
Daevos2005-10-03 05:45:49
QUOTE(terenas @ Oct 2 2005, 08:17 PM)
Daevos- If my chart is so skewed, go make your own then to prove your point. You are not presenting any new information besides constantly complaining that being a Brood Viscanti sucks and that Elfen Lords are ungodly. If that was truly the case then you should perhaps take a look around to see how many good Serenguard fighters are actually Elfen Lords.
You using the rationale that Serenguards have Lash and Wax as active healing method is laughable. Why would you use Lash to heal yourself when you could use Waxing? Yes, I'll Lash someone to heal by 200 health instead of using Waxing to cure myself up to 1k+. You have Puella too, which prior to its nerfing was unbelievably fast and can be done while proned and hindered.
Gosh, after reading all the stuffs people are putting up about how great Elfen Lords are, it almost makes me want to reincarnate into one, just almost.Â
You using the rationale that Serenguards have Lash and Wax as active healing method is laughable. Why would you use Lash to heal yourself when you could use Waxing? Yes, I'll Lash someone to heal by 200 health instead of using Waxing to cure myself up to 1k+. You have Puella too, which prior to its nerfing was unbelievably fast and can be done while proned and hindered.
Gosh, after reading all the stuffs people are putting up about how great Elfen Lords are, it almost makes me want to reincarnate into one, just almost.Â
197713
Your chart may have been factual in the ranges, but inaccurate in practical application. There is no sure way to know the rate of variance within those ranges, and since the ranges are quite large, it is irrational to make any judgement based on them. Also it only shows health.
Does Lash heal you? If so, it is a healing ability. I never said which was preferable, but in situations where it is tactically smart to drain a opponent's mana, its healing component can be a nice boost to your ability to survive.
Go ahead and change, if you wish. All you will lose is your level 2 balance, level 1 eq, and some significant penalties for superior stats. Hell, it would even exchange your herb penalty for a bonus.