Specialized Races

by Daevos

Back to Common Grounds.

Ixchilgal2005-09-30 12:28:17
QUOTE(Thorgal @ Sep 30 2005, 05:53 AM)
Then mugwumps need a downgrade, as mugwumps are a far better choice than shadowcasters. But they are not a better choice than high elfen.
195814



What the hell are you smoking?

Mugwump die -fast-. Sure, they cast relatively quickly, but they're not the only race with a speed boost, and it's the -only- thing they have going for them.

They've got the same lousy health as a Merian, without the Intelligence or Charisma to make up for it, -and- they suffer more from fire and lightning.
Gregori2005-09-30 12:39:32
Mugwump without adding in any boosts
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 82
------------------------------------------------------------
10 con: 3088 health (Sip 451-676, 563 avg)
15 int: 4318 mana (Sip 598-897, 747 avg)
11 cha: 3334 ego (Sip 480-720, 600 avg)
------------------------------------------------------------
Health Regen: 61, 154, 257 (Mercy: 154)
Mana Regen: 86, 215, 359 (Perfection: 215)
Ego Regen: 66, 166, 277 (Beauty: 166)
------------------------------------------------------------
Sparkleberry: 309 health, 432 mana
------------------------------------------------------------
L3 EQ
Can get fire and lightning proofed robes, lowering their penalty.


High Elfen no boosts
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 82
------------------------------------------------------------
11 con: 3334 health (Sip 480-720, 600 avg)
17 int: 4810 mana (Sip 657-986, 821 avg)
16 cha: 4564 ego (Sip 628-942, 785 avg)
------------------------------------------------------------
Health Regen: 66, 166, 277 (Mercy: 166)
Mana Regen: 96, 240, 400 (Perfection: 240)
Ego Regen: 91, 228, 380 (Beauty: 228)
------------------------------------------------------------
Sparkleberry: 333 health, 481 mana
------------------------------------------------------------

So I get 246 more health to "survive" with.

L3 EQ is nothing to sniff at. There is a reason the top fighters in classes using EQ are Mugwump.

As for die "fast", I die fast to damage warriors. This would happen if I was High Elfen as well.

EDIT:: Perfect example. Diamante could kill me in 3 swings, 4 at most. Malicia fighting me with -my- spirit totem healing her and my demesne not hitting her because I had her allied not enemied, couldn't kill me in 3 or 4 swings.
Thorgal2005-09-30 12:57:11
QUOTE(Ixchilgal @ Sep 30 2005, 02:28 PM)
What the hell are you smoking?

Mugwump die -fast-.  Sure, they cast relatively quickly, but they're not the only race with a speed boost, and it's the -only- thing they have going for them.
195854



I think we're already far beyond the point of having to discuss whether or not mugwumps are overpowered.
Ekard2005-09-30 12:59:05
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 30 2005, 02:39 PM)
As for die "fast", I die fast to damage warriors. This would happen if I was High Elfen as well.

EDIT:: Perfect example. Diamante could kill me in 3 swings, 4 at most. Malicia fighting me with -my- spirit totem healing her and my demesne not hitting her because I had her allied not enemied, couldn't kill me in 3 or 4 swings.
195856



But we alredy know that Diamante is exception like Ixion and Daevos. Their damage is insane.
But how it is if you have 2k cr for arites sad.gif
Thorgal2005-09-30 13:03:07
Here's how balanced mugwumps are:

QUOTE
You point your staff at Thorgal and it swells, rapidly discharging a torrent of
poisonous fumes and sharp rocks into his body, engulfing flesh and spirit with
deadly venoms.
4686h, 5649m, 5560e, 10p xk---/13:58:10.259/
You have recovered equilibrium.
4686h, 5649m, 5560e, 10p exk---/13:58:12.252/


Cast "relatively" fast ..?
Ixchilgal2005-09-30 13:16:28
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 30 2005, 07:39 AM)
Mugwump without adding in any boosts
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 82
------------------------------------------------------------
10 con: 3088 health (Sip 451-676, 563 avg)
15 int: 4318 mana  (Sip 598-897, 747 avg)
11 cha: 3334 ego    (Sip 480-720, 600 avg)
------------------------------------------------------------
Health Regen:  61, 154, 257 (Mercy: 154)
Mana Regen:  86, 215, 359 (Perfection: 215)
Ego Regen:  66, 166, 277 (Beauty: 166)
------------------------------------------------------------
Sparkleberry: 309 health, 432 mana
------------------------------------------------------------
L3 EQ
Can get fire and lightning proofed robes, lowering their penalty.
High Elfen no boosts
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 82
------------------------------------------------------------
11 con: 3334 health (Sip 480-720, 600 avg)
17 int: 4810 mana  (Sip 657-986, 821 avg)
16 cha: 4564 ego    (Sip 628-942, 785 avg)
------------------------------------------------------------
Health Regen:  66, 166, 277 (Mercy: 166)
Mana Regen:  96, 240, 400 (Perfection: 240)
Ego Regen:  91, 228, 380 (Beauty: 228)
------------------------------------------------------------
Sparkleberry: 333 health, 481 mana
------------------------------------------------------------

So I get 246 more health to "survive" with.

L3 EQ is nothing to sniff at. There is a reason the top fighters in classes using EQ are Mugwump.

As for die "fast", I die fast to damage warriors. This would happen if I was High Elfen as well.

EDIT:: Perfect example. Diamante could kill me in 3 swings, 4 at most. Malicia fighting me with -my- spirit totem healing her and my demesne not hitting her because I had her allied not enemied, couldn't kill me in 3 or 4 swings.
195856



Anyone can get crap to reduce how bad they are against fire and the like, so that point is completely moot.

Furthermore, Mugwumps just -did- get nerfed. The recent changes to influencing was just that, a nerf for the races with speed bonuses, and bad Charisma. And influencing is unquestionably more important than combat.

And finally, if you take away Mugwump speed, then...what do they have? Seriously. Without their speed, they have...um...adequate Intelligence....not -good-, but adequate. That's it. Oh, and don't forget the regeneration in swamps! I mean, that comes into play just -so- often. Oh, look, we can DIVE too! I mean, just in case you ever wanted to swim around in about 100 rooms spread out across three major bodies of water.

And while we're at it, let's just nerf -every- race that the good fighters select. Yes, every time a decent fighter selects a race, it can be nerfed into uselessness! Yay!
Ixchilgal2005-09-30 13:18:14
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 30 2005, 07:39 AM)
Mugwump without adding in any boosts
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 82
------------------------------------------------------------
10 con: 3088 health (Sip 451-676, 563 avg)
15 int: 4318 mana  (Sip 598-897, 747 avg)
11 cha: 3334 ego    (Sip 480-720, 600 avg)
------------------------------------------------------------
Health Regen:  61, 154, 257 (Mercy: 154)
Mana Regen:  86, 215, 359 (Perfection: 215)
Ego Regen:  66, 166, 277 (Beauty: 166)
------------------------------------------------------------
Sparkleberry: 309 health, 432 mana
------------------------------------------------------------
L3 EQ
Can get fire and lightning proofed robes, lowering their penalty.
High Elfen no boosts
------------------------------------------------------------
Level 82
------------------------------------------------------------
11 con: 3334 health (Sip 480-720, 600 avg)
17 int: 4810 mana  (Sip 657-986, 821 avg)
16 cha: 4564 ego    (Sip 628-942, 785 avg)
------------------------------------------------------------
Health Regen:  66, 166, 277 (Mercy: 166)
Mana Regen:  96, 240, 400 (Perfection: 240)
Ego Regen:  91, 228, 380 (Beauty: 228)
------------------------------------------------------------
Sparkleberry: 333 health, 481 mana
------------------------------------------------------------

So I get 246 more health to "survive" with.

L3 EQ is nothing to sniff at. There is a reason the top fighters in classes using EQ are Mugwump.

As for die "fast", I die fast to damage warriors. This would happen if I was High Elfen as well.

EDIT:: Perfect example. Diamante could kill me in 3 swings, 4 at most. Malicia fighting me with -my- spirit totem healing her and my demesne not hitting her because I had her allied not enemied, couldn't kill me in 3 or 4 swings.
195856



Anyone can get crap to reduce how bad they are against fire and the like, so that point is completely moot.

Furthermore, Mugwumps just -did- get nerfed. The recent changes to influencing was just that, a nerf for the races with speed bonuses, and bad Charisma. And influencing is unquestionably more important than combat.

And finally, if you take away Mugwump speed, then...what do they have? Seriously. Without their speed, they have...um...adequate Intelligence....not -good-, but adequate. That's it. Oh, and don't forget the regeneration in swamps! I mean, that comes into play just -so- often. Oh, look, we can DIVE too! I mean, just in case you ever wanted to swim around in about 100 rooms spread out across three major bodies of water.

And while we're at it, let's just nerf -every- race that the good fighters select. Yes, every time a decent fighter selects a race, it can be nerfed into uselessness! Yay!
Gregori2005-09-30 13:59:02
Your arguement was that you only have L3 eq and your penalties make you a softer target. The proofing is a valid arguement because you can reduce those penalties and still maintain the L3 eq. Anyone with half a brain knows that L3 balance and L3 eq outwiegh any penalties that can be negated.

Take a look at Sentinels in Achaea. Top Sentinel fighters all rajamalan, l3 balance, sip penalty, damage penalties, wake slower, why do they take that race though? Because L3 balance outweighs it all. It wasn't until racial changes a year ago that they started switching over to Mhun's.

As for the influence changes, you obviously have not been involved in any since the changes, as I am a mugwump, I was involved in the influencing of Estelbar, and I had ZERO trouble influenceing anything, including being debated repeatedly. It wasn't until I got stupid and took the offensive in a debate that I shattered my ego. The influence change wasn't a nerf to Mugwumps by the way. I suggest learning about things before trying to state them.

Edit::

And if you are dying fast when you have ranged attacks, then that is because you either don't have the skill and/or the skills to be fighting high end fighters. That has ZERO to do with your racial choice. I fully admit that my skill level against high end fighters is lacking, something I work on improving constantly. I don't blame it on a racial choice though.
Ixchilgal2005-09-30 14:36:13
QUOTE(Gregori @ Sep 30 2005, 08:59 AM)
Your arguement was that you only have L3 eq and your penalties make you a softer target. The proofing is a valid arguement because you can reduce those penalties and still maintain the L3 eq. Anyone with half a brain knows that L3 balance and L3 eq outwiegh any penalties that can be negated.

Take a look at Sentinels in Achaea. Top Sentinel fighters all rajamalan, l3 balance, sip penalty, damage penalties, wake slower, why do they take that race though? Because L3 balance outweighs it all. It wasn't until racial changes a year ago that they started switching over to Mhun's.

As for the influence changes, you obviously have not been involved in any since the changes, as I am a mugwump, I was involved in the influencing of Estelbar, and I had ZERO trouble influenceing anything, including being debated repeatedly. It wasn't until I got stupid and took the offensive in a debate that I shattered my ego. The influence change wasn't a nerf to Mugwumps by the way. I suggest learning about things before trying to state them.

Edit::

And if you are dying fast when you have ranged attacks, then that is because you either don't have the skill and/or the skills to be fighting high end fighters. That has ZERO to do with your racial choice. I fully admit that my skill level against high end fighters is lacking, something I work on improving constantly. I don't blame it on a racial choice though.
195878



Err, making an entire skillset that was previously affected by your equilibrium recovery no longer affected by said recovery, and instead affected by Charisma, which is low for your race is somehow not a nerf. Sure, okay. Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night.

And, just for the sake of arguement, we'll go with your whole plan on nerfing Mugwumps. Alright, they're no longer fast. So, tell me, what is the point of playing a Mugwump? Their Intelligence alone isn't enough to make it worthwhile. They have no Charisma, Constitution, or Strength (Even assuming Strength -mattered- to them). Oh look, a slightly above average Dexterity! Admittedly, it has its moments, but it's hardly going to draw a crowd. Or maybe you're keen on yelling at people in a language they don't understand!....as long as they aren't a bookbinder. Oh! I got it! It's the -slight- resistence to a damage type that's almost never used! Of course!

So, just what are you proposing for them? They've already had their speed reduced once after the racial reworking (Admittedly, all the speed races were affected by that, but since speed is all that Mugwumps have, it hits them hardes). It's later been changed so they're no longer inherently stupidly fast at influencing.

So, what exactly are you proposing?
Geb2005-09-30 14:42:50
QUOTE(Thorgal @ Sep 30 2005, 01:57 PM)
I think we're already far beyond the point of having to discuss whether or not mugwumps are overpowered.
195859



Yes, I have to agree. Level 3 equilibrium and balance bonuses are just plain overpowered. I've said that when they first decided to implement them, and I continue to believe that to this day.
Thorgal2005-09-30 15:02:49
QUOTE(Ixchilgal @ Sep 30 2005, 04:36 PM)
Alright, they're no longer fast.
195894



QUOTE
You point your staff at Thorgal and it swells, rapidly discharging a torrent of
poisonous fumes and sharp rocks into his body, engulfing flesh and spirit with
deadly venoms.
4686h, 5649m, 5560e, 10p xk---/13:58:10.259/
You have recovered equilibrium.
4686h, 5649m, 5560e, 10p exk---/13:58:12.252/


Dude..

edit: If you don't believe this log, ask Kaervas, who sent it to me. He's not going to lie to have his own race nerfed. In fact, I've never ever seen, heard or noticed him lie at all.
Malicia2005-09-30 15:13:10
I'm noticing that most warriors are leaning towards Igasho for the blademaster bonus and Aslaran for the speed. Not Elfen Lord. And, let's look at the advantages one more time, while we're fixated on Elfen Lord/Lady stats.

Viscanti

ADVANTAGES:
o Can breathe poison gas upon reaching level 50.
o Regenerate health and mana while in Tainted land, level 3.
o Immune from poison gas.
o Resistance to poison damage, level 1.
o Resistance to blunt damage, level 1.
o Resistance to cutting damage, level 1.

Elfen

ADVANTAGES:
o Have a racial language, Elfen.
o Regenerate health and mana while in forest environments, Level 1.
o Faster herb balance, level 1.
o Resistance to psychic damage, level 1.

So, Brood Viscanti should lose the only penalty they have when their advantages top the Elfen Lords? I really hope they'd lose +2 CON if the sipping penalty is removed. You also have to look at their skills. Putrefaction, no sipping penalty, Max con.. meh.
Thorgal2005-09-30 15:38:49
That's the whole point Malicia, Elfen Lord stats are far better than brood viscanti stats. You'd have to be an idiot to seriously argue brood viscanti being remotely competitive to elfen lords.
Malicia2005-09-30 15:42:56
Can you not call me an idiot and look at what I'm saying? I hate talking to you.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that the Viscanti advantages top the Elfen.

And this is probably why they have the sipping penalty, to balance out the tankiness. Cutting, blunt resistance, putrefaction..and they want to lose their penalty.

Base Viscanti CON- 14

Base Elfen CON- 11

Brood Viscanti CON- 16

Elfen Lord CON- 14

All base, before defs.
Nayl2005-09-30 16:05:15
QUOTE(Thorgal @ Sep 30 2005, 11:38 PM)
That's the whole point Malicia, Elfen Lord stats are far better than brood viscanti stats. You'd have to be an idiot to seriously argue brood viscanti being remotely competitive to elfen lords.
195915




QUOTE(Malicia @ Sep 30 2005, 11:42 PM)
Can you not call me an idiot and look at what I'm saying? I hate talking to you.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that the Viscanti advantages top the Elfen.

195918



Alrighty, first up, I'm having a row in real life, so excuse any harsh words, and moderate this as necessary.
However, Thorgal, no need to namecall, you know better.
And Mali, the advantages do beat Elfen, yes, but you have to look at the total package, before you can get a real deal, example, you go to a new mobile phone company, and one has cheaper calls, and the other is dearer. Meaning the first is better, but, you have to look at the total package, ie, the second one has a smaller minimum per month, cheaper sms, and a cheaper connect charge, after 10 minutes, free for 5.
You have to look at the bonuses, and the negatives, and weight them up for the netgain.
Sylphas2005-09-30 16:11:32
Once again, total stats are misleading for anything but warriors, and even then should probably be weighted.

Also, against anything but huge burst damage (Ixion, Diamante, etc), unspecialized Faeling are tankier than High Elfen, due to the regen and sip bonuses. Shadowcaster Faeling then get added con, so they're even better in comparison.
Unknown2005-09-30 16:21:36
Putrefaction only increases tankiness when dealing with damage warriors, high damage without runes.
And Geomancers don't get it.
It's not a factor you should include.
Thorgal2005-09-30 16:56:05
QUOTE(Malicia @ Sep 30 2005, 05:42 PM)
Can you not call me an idiot and look at what I'm saying? I hate talking to you.
195918



Your character has been only one single race its entire life, and guess which race this was? Elfen lord, of course you're biased in this, you wouldn't know better, can't even hold it against you. I'm sorry for calling you an idiot, I should have used the word ignorant.

I don't really hold anything against you personally, I'm just unable to not react if someone is posting rubbish.

For somone that's been guildhopping all over, been most races, experienced every penalty and advantage in this or other realms, comparing a race like viscanti with their lvl2 sipping penalty against a race without any disadvantages, while stacked with advantages, it is crystal clear.
Malicia2005-09-30 17:23:54
I firmly believe that you don't have to guildhop to fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of any subject one wishes to press upon. I don't exactly remember you ever being Elfen Lord, so could I just cancel out your input, due to that fact? No. In short, you're the ignorant one. Grow up. I was pointing out the racial advantages and how they're FAR better than the Elfen Lords. Any open-minded person could see that. Nayl even admitted to that, partly so. Terenas as well. So continue insulting me if it makes your day. I thought you had me on ignore?

QUOTE(Nayl)
You have to look at the bonuses, and the negatives, and weight them up for the netgain.


I agree with that. The Elfen are balanced in that we're not overly strong, overly tanky or overly fast. We're just right. Elfen Lord 'STAGS' are not very tanky. Stag offers no blunt/cutting protection. You'd say that the Viscanti aren't tanky? If you want to weigh all pros/cons, including the skillsets accessible to each, we'd figure out why things are set up the way they are. I don't feel like crashing numbers, but why does everyone want to be the same as everyone else? It's quite obvious that there are strengths and weaknesses in all races. They should just make one race, same stats...and let us go at it.
Nayl2005-09-30 17:42:48
Just curious, not sure if it's been done.

But I'd like to see a comparison, statistacally, and tested, of Viscanti regen, and sipping, plus their regeneration, over ten or so minutes, in comparison to say, Elfen Lord.