Obviously my opinion on the flow change will be disregarded by most of you forestal whining. But I think all of the changes on travel have been good for the most part, other than the flow/wisp working in either forest environment one. Flow was simply too powerful in its former form. It had no significant drawbacks, and was useful in vast situations.
I also think comparing catacombs to flow is kind of foolish. Flow was vastly more accessible to the communes than catacombs ever was to the city. Two of your guilds gained it as a novice skill, while only one of the guild in each city had the option of learning catacombs. Also Flow was far more versatile, offensively as well as defensively. Currently, I think the skill is still useful, but atleast now it is no longer as ridiculously powerful as it once was.
Malicia2005-10-22 00:30:38
We're whining and you haven't? You've whined about wisp/flow for ages. It's a bad change. How is it still useful? Care to explain?
Narsrim2005-10-22 00:34:28
I think one major concern to be addressed is how the Nature skillset is going to be compensated for such a change. We literally have some of the most worthless abilities out there that serve no purpose (Nut, for example, because all of the damn trees were planted 6 irl months ago). We can web in a forest for free (woo!), we can guard plants for power and mistletoe (I guess that'd be awesome - you were a herbalist).
The bulk of abilities in Elementalism, Rituals, etc are typically decent abilities that have purpose. Icewalls, Ignite, Magelock, Gust, Levitate, Puella, Puer, Amissio, Populus, Laetitia, Draconis, Tristitia, Carcer, etc... compare these to Guard, Nut, Torc, Vines, Growth, etc.... Nature just blows now.
Laysus2005-10-22 00:39:00
I think the main reason people like Daevos are happy with is because it makes it harder for us to defend territory than it makes it harder for us to raid.
Edit: I mean, if we ignore the short state of the flow change that noone liked, and think of the state where it was flow to forest if you're moon/stag or infested forest if you're crow/night, and compare it to now. Doesn't make raiding any harder, but makes defending our places a hell of a lot harder.
Daevos2005-10-22 00:44:18
QUOTE(Malicia @ Oct 21 2005, 07:30 PM)
We're whining and you haven't? You've whined about wisp/flow for ages. It's a bad change. How is it still useful? Care to explain?
209860
How is the ability to instant move to any enemy within your territory not useful? The communes only lost the ability to do that from any forestal location plane wide. But there have been many times that I have been running around Mag's own villages trying to hunt down a enemy, and wished I could flow. Also I know that Celest probably wished that they had such a ability as well when I used to raid them extensively. It is still a incredible and enviable asset.
Munsia2005-10-22 00:45:49
QUOTE(Daevos @ Oct 21 2005, 08:44 PM)
How is the ability to instant move to any enemy within your territory not useful? The communes only lost the ability to do that from any forestal location plane wide. But there have been many times that I have been running around Mag's own villages trying to hunt down a enemy, and wished I could flow. Also I know that Celest probably wished that they had such a ability as well when I used to raid them extensively. It is still a incredible and enviable asset.
209865
Serenwilde is still two sections.. so it's not as easy for us to defend northern seren when we are in southern seren
Unknown2005-10-22 00:47:27
I guess this is going to correspond to a general downgrade in offensive power, right?
Since escaping was one of our most powerful advantages combat-wise, and that's been downgraded across the board... it must mean the ridiculous offense that some classes have is not going to be as devastating, right?
Malicia2005-10-22 00:51:54
Daevos- The greatest strength in flow was that you could cover a long distance, quickly and reach your enemy, with or without a team of forestals. It still required equillibrium and yes, it was a nifty skill, but how often did you have a team of 40 people flowing in to you when you'd raid Rockholm? It's just fast- it gets a person in location so that others can either flow in or teleport to the trouble source.
The pure-forest is a Seren's domain. We should be able to freely move between them, no matter how far apart they are, provided that it's the same type of forest. At the very least. This hurts Glomdoring too, you know. Yes, it's enviable, but I envy ghost, lich. I envy catacombs. I'd love to have a puer-like ability, which I begged Terenas to look into. Do we have these things? I don't create a new thread, every week, looking to downgrade your amazing abilities.
We're not supposed to be the same, right? We have our strengths and weaknesses. You have yours.
An edit- Flow was a good escape ability, for the poor little dancers/druids that get jumped, here and there. It's not used solely for defense.
The Serenguard have been totally owned by the monolith now.
Suhnaye2005-10-22 00:52:46
Personally, I think your all looking at everything backwards to what you should be... Flow was insanely powerfull... But instead of nerfing it, everyone else should have had their particular travel skills beefed up to match in some way... All nerfing good skills is going to do is eventually force the entire combat system into a state of complete stagnation... It'll be pointless, and I find that a bit on the sad side, when Lusternia is all about combat...
EDIT:
Also, I think Flow was just fine taint to taint forest and natural to natural forest, regardless of which commune the person belonged to. I also agree with the previous statement that the Nature skillset is one of THE most useless skillsets in the game... Sense-Lets you sense runes in survey Blend-lets you hide Barkskin-physical protection (One decent skill) Talisman-basic weapon (Required skill) Rooting-summons protection Nut-all but useless now Torc-provides about 50 mana to any spell.... kind of usefull Faeriefire-pointless Vines-..... Usefull if your in forest Growth-Herbs... Flow-Made up for the lack of anything else, now nerfed Guard-Herbs... Rain-Herbs... Gate-Planar skill, you get this before you get RIFT!! Pointless much?
Xavius2005-10-22 01:00:06
Every skillset has its stereotypically pointless skills, but nature is composed primarily of them.
Faeriefire? Woot! Nut! Wow, sweet Estarra, thanks! Oh oh oh, GUARD! Yeah! And rain! OMFG, don't forget rain. Or growth! Man, I'm so glad I can make those plants grow a little bit faster so that the Mags can still taint their farmlands and wipe it all out. Oh, and blend! Man, that skill's awesome. I only have to spend 7 lessons, instead of the 16 to get yesod in highmagic. Sure, it's half as useful, but hey! Nine lessons is a big deal, you know! And I'm so glad I trade puella, puer, and populus for TORC! I pwn you!
Munsia2005-10-22 01:01:04
Nature users unite!
Kharne2005-10-22 01:01:08
Yes, its very fustrating
Suhnaye2005-10-22 01:05:05
After reading my previous edit... I feel the need to say to Estarra and the rest of the Admins, that I yeh all... But you know that Nature was not your finest moment in Skillsets
Eiru2005-10-22 01:14:59
You guys think you got shafted?
Finally, a change that actually makes sense.
And while we're speaking of unspeakable changes and ranting here, are there any plans for making nihilists not suck so bad? Making them say, have amazing escape skills, like the way flow was before, or, giving them something that's as easy to pull off as inquisition or stun/th/soulless, or 50% mana instakill without having to wait 5 seconds to regain balance after webbing? Or maybe make them do more than 700 damage with cosmicfire, or at the very least make them do more damage against mobs, particularly since that downgrade to putre?
No?
I'm not saying make it a duplicate of its counterpart, I'm just trying to show the contrast between the two classes in terms of power, every viable way to kill with nihilists is really harder than what the other guardian classes have to deal with.
The constant downgrades to Nihilists, when they are really a very complex class to use, are very disheartening. I hope there is something planned for them that'll make them alright again, I mean thanks for the upgrade to raise dead, but I doubt I can use someone's corpse to kill them while they still live.
Nihilists have to get something back, they're such a sorry class right now.
-sigh-
Anyway, still, thanks for taking the time.
And on the subject, I have been planning to go a forestal class for quite sometime now, and even if I do, I would still think this is a very good change, this is truly one of those moments that makes me feel that, yes, my friends, we shall be fine after all.
Thank you, Admin.
Unknown2005-10-22 01:19:02
I wonder, is this summary accurate for the abilities we have which are affected by forest environments?
o Cannot web outside forest without a city enchantment o Cannot shroud outside forest except at night o Can be wisped inside forest o Can be flowed to inside forest
If so, I have been wrong in thinking that forest-based classes were meant to have an overall advantage in forests.
Eyod2005-10-22 01:26:28
I'd prefer flow to be returned to it's original state, especially with the change to spore.
Munsia2005-10-22 01:29:16
we all would but they proceeded to nerf us
Suhnaye2005-10-22 01:36:51
QUOTE(Eiru @ Oct 21 2005, 06:14 PM)
You guys think you got shafted?
Finally, a change that actually makes sense.
And while we're speaking of unspeakable changes and ranting here, are there any plans for making nihilists not suck so bad? Making them say, have amazing escape skills, like the way flow was before, or, giving them something that's as easy to pull off as inquisition or stun/th/soulless, or 50% mana instakill without having to wait 5 seconds to regain balance after webbing? Or maybe make them do more than 700 damage with cosmicfire, or at the very least make them do more damage against mobs, particularly since that downgrade to putre?
No?
I'm not saying make it a duplicate of its counterpart, I'm just trying to show the contrast between the two classes in terms of power, every viable way to kill with nihilists is really harder than what the other guardian classes have to deal with.
The constant downgrades to Nihilists, when they are really a very complex class to use, are very disheartening. I hope there is something planned for them that'll make them alright again, I mean thanks for the upgrade to raise dead, but I doubt I can use someone's corpse to kill them while they still live.
Nihilists have to get something back, they're such a sorry class right now. -sigh-
Anyway, still, thanks for taking the time.
And on the subject, I have been planning to go a forestal class for quite sometime now, and even if I do, I would still think this is a very good change, this is truly one of those moments that makes me feel that, yes, my friends, we shall be fine after all.
Thank you, Admin.
209899
This is kinda what I meant by going in the wrong direction... I don't think that skills neccisarily need to be nerfed because their good, but rather, that maybe opposing skills should be reinforced to even the playing field... It would be more accurate to the way the world works... I mean, an enemy has a huge tactical advantage... There are two options, sabotage it, or make a counter that evens the field... The advantage of the second, is it advances the state of the art, while the first just knocks ya back to the stone-age eventually.
Xavius2005-10-22 01:49:46
You know, the more I think about this, the less I can understand the thought process. Let's take a look at this on a smaller scale, like village influencing.
Demesne wars were always a fact of life for interorganization combat. Having the terrain meant relative safety for your forces within. The ability for both sides to flow or wisp through either forest type removes that. Wisp traps can be set up in a border room. With a moment's notice, everyone moves in, demesne holder gets wisped, demesne effects go down. Or, barring that, everyone moves in, group leader flows, melee ensues. There is no more demesne war, except Gloms hiding in a Magnagoran demesne. I can see it already, and I won't feel the least bit bad about it (and I can see the Seren flames already--good times).
Yes, this is an improvement over worldwide instant raiding. Yes, thank you for plugging our security gap quickly. I'm still not seeing the need for this, though. Flow was powerful, but it cost lots of druid power to maintain that worldwide transport and made up for the lack of communal scrying skills. Wisp got an upgrade. Wisp traps were already scary. Help me out here. I just don't see how this works out.
Unknown2005-10-22 01:53:40
You're right, Xavius. It's better for both communes to use city demesnes.
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yeh all... But you know that Nature was not your finest moment in Skillsets