Narsrim2005-10-22 01:54:36
QUOTE(Xavius @ Oct 21 2005, 09:49 PM)
You know, the more I think about this, the less I can understand the thought process. Let's take a look at this on a smaller scale, like village influencing.
Demesne wars were always a fact of life for interorganization combat. Having the terrain meant relative safety for your forces within. The ability for both sides to flow or wisp through either forest type removes that. Wisp traps can be set up in a border room. With a moment's notice, everyone moves in, demesne holder gets wisped, demesne effects go down. Or, barring that, everyone moves in, group leader flows, melee ensues. There is no more demesne war, except Gloms hiding in a Magnagoran demesne. I can see it already, and I won't feel the least bit bad about it (and I can see the Seren flames already--good times).
Yes, this is an improvement over worldwide instant raiding. Yes, thank you for plugging our security gap quickly. I'm still not seeing the need for this, though. Flow was powerful, but it cost lots of druid power to maintain that worldwide transport and made up for the lack of communal scrying skills. Wisp got an upgrade. Wisp traps were already scary. Help me out here. I just don't see how this works out.
Demesne wars were always a fact of life for interorganization combat. Having the terrain meant relative safety for your forces within. The ability for both sides to flow or wisp through either forest type removes that. Wisp traps can be set up in a border room. With a moment's notice, everyone moves in, demesne holder gets wisped, demesne effects go down. Or, barring that, everyone moves in, group leader flows, melee ensues. There is no more demesne war, except Gloms hiding in a Magnagoran demesne. I can see it already, and I won't feel the least bit bad about it (and I can see the Seren flames already--good times).
Yes, this is an improvement over worldwide instant raiding. Yes, thank you for plugging our security gap quickly. I'm still not seeing the need for this, though. Flow was powerful, but it cost lots of druid power to maintain that worldwide transport and made up for the lack of communal scrying skills. Wisp got an upgrade. Wisp traps were already scary. Help me out here. I just don't see how this works out.
209959
I'm sorry but you just don't understand how this change is going to work at all.
Demesne warfare is now in favor of Mages. They can summon people at whim in their demesne but they cannot be plucked from it like Druids. What does this mean? Celest and Serenwilde will be switching over to Aqua demense primarily and Magnagora/Glomdoring will as always keep the Geo demense. Furthermore, you can summon entire entourages to you with demesne summon. Why teleport an army to the opposing side when you can just jerk them all to you at once?
The security gap is WIDE OPEN. What stops me from wlaking into Glomdoring by trees, flowing to my target, dropping and killing them, and sporing/teleporting out? That's just like it was except it now takes me 1 minute longer to get inside. In fact, I'm going to raid Glomdoring later just to rid this foolish notion that security has been fixed. Knee jerk != fix.
And how exactly was wisp upgraded?
Unknown2005-10-22 01:57:43
I have to agree that Nature skillset looks weak compared to rituals (which it should be compared to).
And Eiru, bro, nobody cares about Nihilists anymore for quite a long time. Note that most of the guild are more the roleplayers than fighters. We get nerfed constantly for a long long time now but like I said, nobody cares.
Actually, I can't shake that feeling that guardians as a whole don't play any important role. Many warriors are tanks, they either hit hard or fast with wounds. Mages and druids are demesners so they're pivotal. But guardians? You don't really need them. Guardians don't excel at anything. Celestines at least have their inquisition.
And that saddens me.
And Eiru, bro, nobody cares about Nihilists anymore for quite a long time. Note that most of the guild are more the roleplayers than fighters. We get nerfed constantly for a long long time now but like I said, nobody cares.
Actually, I can't shake that feeling that guardians as a whole don't play any important role. Many warriors are tanks, they either hit hard or fast with wounds. Mages and druids are demesners so they're pivotal. But guardians? You don't really need them. Guardians don't excel at anything. Celestines at least have their inquisition.
And that saddens me.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:04:55
QUOTE(Kashim @ Oct 21 2005, 09:57 PM)
I have to agree that Nature skillset looks weak compared to rituals (which it should be compared to).
And Eiru, bro, nobody cares about Nihilists anymore for quite a long time. Note that most of the guild are more the roleplayers than fighters. We get nerfed constantly for a long long time now but like I said, nobody cares.
Actually, I can't shake that feeling that guardians as a whole don't play any important role. Many warriors are tanks, they either hit hard or fast with wounds. Mages and druids are demesners so they're pivotal. But guardians? You don't really need them. Guardians don't excel at anything. Celestines at least have their inquisition.
And that saddens me.
And Eiru, bro, nobody cares about Nihilists anymore for quite a long time. Note that most of the guild are more the roleplayers than fighters. We get nerfed constantly for a long long time now but like I said, nobody cares.
Actually, I can't shake that feeling that guardians as a whole don't play any important role. Many warriors are tanks, they either hit hard or fast with wounds. Mages and druids are demesners so they're pivotal. But guardians? You don't really need them. Guardians don't excel at anything. Celestines at least have their inquisition.
And that saddens me.
209966
The biggest advantage to guardians/wiccans was the ability to poof out at a moments notice. Now...
Eiru2005-10-22 02:05:05
Hah, Narsrim, did you actually just admit that the change wasn't that bad?
Awesome man, I always knew you had the skill to do something like that.
Awesome man, I always knew you had the skill to do something like that.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:08:05
QUOTE(Eiru @ Oct 21 2005, 10:05 PM)
Hah, Narsrim, did you actually just admit that the change wasn't that bad?
Awesome man, I always knew you had the skill to do something like that.
Awesome man, I always knew you had the skill to do something like that.
209973
Eh? This is the biggest downgrade of an abilities ever.
Unknown2005-10-22 02:08:41
No I think he just admitted that now the wiccan class has no niche.
Eiru2005-10-22 02:10:54
No seriously man, you just said it is practically the same thing, will just take you one minute longer.
The point of it is, it was truly powerful, come on, in and out of combat, from wide areas! You don't need more than one poof ability, look at Nihilists, what'd they get? And dancers rock them.
You still have a coven, conclave, spores, and if you die, unlike liches, you actually get ress'ed and whisked away to safety by your coven.
I'd say those are good enough "poof"-ing materials.
The point of it is, it was truly powerful, come on, in and out of combat, from wide areas! You don't need more than one poof ability, look at Nihilists, what'd they get? And dancers rock them.
You still have a coven, conclave, spores, and if you die, unlike liches, you actually get ress'ed and whisked away to safety by your coven.
I'd say those are good enough "poof"-ing materials.
Geb2005-10-22 02:12:26
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Oct 22 2005, 02:54 AM)
Furthermore, you can summon entire entourages to you with demesne summon. Why teleport an army to the opposing side when you can just jerk them all to you at once?
209962
Just to make sure that statement is qualified. A mage can only yank everyone if everyone is following the person the mage sought to demesne summon. Wisp does not pull everyone following the person who is targeted for the wisp?
Unknown2005-10-22 02:12:57
Eiru, I think you need to try and understand other abilities before claiming that only you and your class are hard done by, and everyone else has it so much easier than you.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:12:57
QUOTE(Eiru @ Oct 21 2005, 10:10 PM)
No seriously man, you just said it is practically the same thing, will just take you one minute longer.
209980
Eh? What? I said the security issues are essentially the same. I can still raid Glomdoring with Flow as easy as I could before... its just that the use of Flow defensively is now borderline nonexistant.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:13:32
QUOTE(geb @ Oct 21 2005, 10:12 PM)
Just to make sure that statement is qualified. A mage can only yank everyone if everyone is following the person the mage sought to demesne summoned. Wisp does not pull everyone following the person who is targeted for the wisp?
209981
Wisp only summons the person. It will never pull the people following him or her.
Daevos2005-10-22 02:15:19
QUOTE(geb @ Oct 21 2005, 09:12 PM)
Just to make sure that statement is qualified. A mage can only yank everyone if everyone is following the person the mage sought to demesne summon. Wisp does not pull everyone following the person who is targeted for the wisp?
209981
Right, wisp never pulls the entourage. But I would think that would be a advantage of wisp. Since would you really wish to risk pulling a sizeable group to you. Also in the case of demesne summon, the only summoner is at significant risk after the pull. Unlike wisp, where surrogates(wiccans) can summon while the demesne holder remains in a safer location.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:17:14
QUOTE(Daevos @ Oct 21 2005, 10:15 PM)
Right, wisp never pulls the entourage. But I would think that would be a advantage of wisp. Since would you really wish to risk pulling a sizeable group to you. Also in the case of demesne summon, the only summoner is at significant risk after the pull. Unlike wisp, where surrogates(wiccans) can summon while the demesne holder remains in a safer location.
209987
I don't how you can continually argue that a skill that requires two or more people to use has advantages in that there are two or more people that can be in different spots. Isn't it obvious that something that requires more people to do has a little bit more freedom to it?
Geb2005-10-22 02:18:18
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Oct 22 2005, 03:13 AM)
Wisp only summons the person. It will never pull the people following him or her.
209986
I guess benefits and drawbacks can be seen in that. I know a mage who summons a group of people that outnumber his group, will wish demesne summon only pulled the person targeted. I know I have had those instances where I wish I did not have to worry that I may pull the whole darn group to me.
*Ok, enough of my demesne summons hijack.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:19:58
I guess it will be ok if Nature is compensated to be less worthless skills (like Nut, I mean seriously) to useful-ish skills on the puella/puer/icewall/etc usefullness ranking
Eiru2005-10-22 02:20:08
Avaer, I think you should be a Nihilist first before you say something like that.
True, I've never really been anything else, except an aqua for like 30 minutes and a Geomancer for a week, but I've known people who have been in many guilds, good combatants too, and I've fought many people from other guilds, and believe me when I tell you as far as guardian combat goes, Nihilists are the hardest to use, the most complex, and the weakest.
They're probably the most complex of ALL classes to use, as a matter of fact I will bet you my sucky 300 year old mouse that they are.
True, I've never really been anything else, except an aqua for like 30 minutes and a Geomancer for a week, but I've known people who have been in many guilds, good combatants too, and I've fought many people from other guilds, and believe me when I tell you as far as guardian combat goes, Nihilists are the hardest to use, the most complex, and the weakest.
They're probably the most complex of ALL classes to use, as a matter of fact I will bet you my sucky 300 year old mouse that they are.
Narsrim2005-10-22 02:21:17
QUOTE(Eiru @ Oct 21 2005, 10:20 PM)
Avaer, I think you should be a Nihilist first before you say something like that.
True, I've never really been anything else, except an aqua for like 30 minutes and a Geomancer for a week, but I've known people who have been in many guilds, good combatants too, and I've fought many people from other guilds, and believe me when I tell you as far as guardian combat goes, Nihilists are the hardest to use, the most complex, and the weakest.
They're probably the most complex of ALL classes to use, as a matter of fact I will bet you my sucky 300 year old mouse that they are.
True, I've never really been anything else, except an aqua for like 30 minutes and a Geomancer for a week, but I've known people who have been in many guilds, good combatants too, and I've fought many people from other guilds, and believe me when I tell you as far as guardian combat goes, Nihilists are the hardest to use, the most complex, and the weakest.
They're probably the most complex of ALL classes to use, as a matter of fact I will bet you my sucky 300 year old mouse that they are.
209993
Ebonguard with Crow <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Nihilists.
Unknown2005-10-22 02:22:04
I don't really care about Nihilists, but I'm not making statements about their skills because I don't know their limitations myself.
That's the point I was trying to make.
Edit: Yeah, and Narsrim's right, from what I understand Crow needs some work before anything else does.
That's the point I was trying to make.
Edit: Yeah, and Narsrim's right, from what I understand Crow needs some work before anything else does.
Xenthos2005-10-22 02:22:41
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Oct 21 2005, 10:21 PM)
Ebonguard with Crow <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Nihilists.
209994
Well, an Ebonguard with Crow isn't really all that complex to use. It's basically like any other warrior, just without a third skillset.
Though I would say that makes us somewhat weak.
Unknown2005-10-22 02:23:13
QUOTE(Avaer @ Oct 22 2005, 04:22 AM)
I don't really care about Nihilists,
209995
Hah! Told ya.
