Proof that if skills are changed instead of runes, warriors without runes will be screwed.

Like it was stated many times (by Thorgal mostly ), runes are the most imbalancing factor.

Balance it with the runes, warriors without them will be severely underpowered.
Balance it without the runes, you get situations like this one.

EDIT: Balancing afflictions might need work too, but unavoidable heavy damage problem is also evident.

She never complained about the damage, she complained about not having a chance to survive at all since she was beheaded so easily. So, I think we need to stop concentrating on the damage and concentrate on her complaint about being beheaded in two assaults. It would not have mattered if she had 10k health, since she did not actually die to health damage. Therefore comparing damage means nothing, since her post was actually about the wounding.

Geb makes a strong point here.

When Murphy was able to bashbrain with a strike (crush), we cried, we whined. No insta-kill should be able to bypass all defenses. That is all.

You can't build an argument out of an event considered in isolation. To make an argument for or against anything, you need to present an analysis of the variables involved and how they interact. Stating an opinion with the assumption that others will do the footwork for you to prove or disprove it is ridiculous.

Either make an argument, or stop asking me to take your ranting seriously.

even I cried and whinged and whined, i was the main objector

A guy dies while taking pill X with no other apparent cause of death.

Will anyone say "Oh, this is only one event, it can't be proven to be anything serious. Keep on taking your X-pills, everyone"?

- Daevos has over 520+ precision greatsword that can give any target that isn't wearing a greathelm slitthroat in one assault. (That is heavy wounding)

- Daevos was able to in that log behead Munsia in 2 assaults. Both of which are completely unavoidable since that is only a total of 8 powers and can be done back to back.

- 2 handed greatswords can crank out some absurdly high precision. By dividing his greatsword by 2.2 that is equivalent to getting 2 swings to the head by two 240+ precision weapons. How many weapons do you know of that have such precision and damage?

- An unblockable swing in the form of assault is again way too powerful. Considering that the highest level of wound afflictions are derived from swings (i.e.- Behead, Bashbrain, Amputate, Disembowel, Burst Organs, Slit Throat, Concussion).

- Prior to Assault/Sweep, I tested out Lunge head with a 500+ precision greatsword and realized that I was able to bring Malicia with her 90/90 greathelm down in one lunge. Note that I did not have Pureblade Specialization and very low strength (only 15). I realized that this was way too powerful and reported it to Roark and got it subsequently changed so that BM aren't able to lunge with 2-handed weapons anymore.

- I can understand the rationale of making Assault/Sweep swings since Pureblade and Axelord don't really have any good jab-given wound afflictions aside from Leg Tendon, Knockdown, and Kneecap. But a similar argument can be made for BM/BC since they aren't able to pull off a behead/bashbrain with Lunge or Crush.

Yes, but you have a targetted, quadrupple swing, called haymaker. Alger already showed many many times how easily he can slitlock and behead people with it. Blademasters have zero reason to complain about assault or sweep, since haymaker is much more powerful in most situations, and they have Lunge to boot.

It took Daevos 8 power to take down Munsia, on the second blow she would have died to damage if she didn't get beheaded anyway, but how much do you think would be left of her if Ixion makes hay of her head? Just shreds, and that's only 2 power less. If pureblades and axelords do too much wounds, then so do bonecrushers and blademasters.

The damage problem stems from elemental runes, the wounding problem stems from armour affecting it too much. The formula should be softened so weak armour like greatrobes offers MORE protection against wounds, and strong armour like fieldplate and fullplate offers LESS protection.

Knights take barely any wounds, non-knights take too much wounds. You've rejected this before, because you didn't want your fullplate to be downgraded, but this is the problem. Knights have to sacrifice wound-protection for the sake of balance.

Little example, I hit Kaervas for 1700 wounds, and Daevos for 550. That's how much the wounding is out of whack.

I don't want to see my 300cr transed ability in forging made utterly useless.

Hrm, Murphy only does around 300 wounds to me nowadays...

It often feels like knights gradually become immune to each other, work hard to compensate, then become outlandish against non-knights. I agree that some sort of wound tweaking needs to be done with armor. It feels like the code is handling it akin to (ArmorValue/X)=WoundResistance, when it would be more balanced to calculate it as (Y + (ArmorValue/X))=WoundResistance, with 'Y' as a base protection value for wearing armor period.

An armor change like this wouldn't be a full-plate nerf, though, Malicia. We'd still have better wounding resistance, and it wouldn't affect our damage resistance.

Regarding a few of Terenas' points, I've felt for a while that the entire forging process needs to be looked at in Lusternia. I might actually leave the game if it was changed, but in the right hands, it can be manipulated to create combinations that probably shouldn't exist from the viewpoint of balance. You could probably count the people with the patience and understanding to do this on a single hand with fingers left over, but perhaps the possibility alone is too much.

1) Haymaker/slitthroat are still preventable with parry head. And it takes a lot of work for us to actually get it up there. In all the spars Alger and I had fought, we never got each other low enough for a behead or slitthroat. Not to mention if someone parries my haymaker or I hit rebounding as well.

2) Again, the point is that he can couple very high damage with very high precision. I ask you how feasible is it for a BM or BC to have high wounding and damage? Even Ixion is only able to do great damage at the cost of speed and wounding.



I highly doubt that is the case. I have tested before with Dumihru and her 65 cutting greatrobes. With my 180 precision averaged weapons I was only doing roughly 300 wounding to her with 15 Strength, that is light level. For comparison purposes, the breakpoint on wounding to enter into heavy range is betweeen 1200 and 1300. So it would take me roughly 4-5 hits just to get her limbs into the beginning of heavy stage. Would you consider that robes aren't good enough?

No, the problem is that Strength plays too large of a role when it comes to determining wounding. Races with low strength might hit faster but for low wounding, unless they posses pre-nerfed high precision/speed rapiers/hammers. Not to mention that weapon stats have almost no caps in Lusternia. Allowing weapons to reach insanely high capacities, such as 200+ base damage broadswords, 300+ base speed rapiers, and 240+ precision weapons.

Terenas has beheaded me with haymaker before and after it happened, I quickly learned to parry my head when it was getting close. It hasn't happened since and when he tries, he loses 10p. That's not exactly fair to compare to something that costs 8p, goes through shield, rebounding, stance, etc.

It still seems like the REAL issue is with the unblockable attacks (the old lunge/lunge/lunge/lunge/die deal) Haymaker can kill easily but can be blocked/parried/ext. The combat spar posted, however, wasn't as easily stopped and definatly can't be healed off (as others have noticed, if she applied health to avoid behead, the damage would kill, if health was drunk the behead would kick in. I doubt sparkle alone would've done the job).

Thus would warriors REALY be that impossible if either:

1. JUST Unblockable attacks weren't as strong
2. The enemy would run out of power before too many blows came in.
or
3. You could protect yourself against the attack (shield, rebound, stance, whatever)?

Runes, damage, and even armor might need to be altered as well, but instead of something so radical a more focused change might solve most of the issues.

A couple more points for reference (someone asked for more data) -

These were initial hits. I'm fairly certain that head and legs were fully healed before this started (but I don't have logs of that).

The sword used here is different from the one used on Munsia (the lightning sword does more damage).

3135h, 4200m, 3075e, 10p, 13150en, 19900w exk-
Holding the flame fang of the dark dragon poised at an angle overhead, Daevos
unleashes a violent assault at your right leg.You lose purchase on a wiccan
broom.
Daevos strikes the tendon above your right heel, and you scream in agony as
it's completely severed.
2478h, 4200m, 3075e, 10p, 13150en, 19900w exkp-
You bleed 89 health.

3135h, 4200m, 3075e, 10p, 13150en, 19864w exkp-
Holding the flame fang of the dark dragon poised at an angle overhead, Daevos
unleashes a violent assault at your head. Daevos strikes your neck, and blood
fountains out in a thick spray.
2611h, 4200m, 3075e, 10p, 13150en, 19864w exkp-

If you don't balance the skill taking into consideration warriors with runes, then you are making the skill overpowered by design. Using the argument that "not every warrior has runes" means little because every warrior can have runes, which means every warrior has the chance to be doing this sort of insane damage/wounding with an attack that is unstoppable.

Daevos and Ixion may be an exception because of runes currently, but as more warriors catch onto this tactic what do you think they will be saving up for?

"Gee I have this warrior that I can trans something useless in the game with, or I can buy runes for my weapons and insta kill people all the time."

Any half-wit can figure out that one.

And look at the more mature games, where any top combatant has arties. Eventually, every warrior worth much will have runes.

That's why some people want to put the focus of change on the runes themselves instead on changing the entire damage structure. Changing the system to make warriors balanced with runes means any warrior without runes is completely useless.

I mean, if warriors ARE playable and counterable without runes, then perhaps it's best just to focus on what makes them overbearing.

However, I still think it's the "attack that is unstoppable" that might be better to fix.

Yeah, but do they really have any chance against someone shieldwhoring then, for example a mage? True, the warrior wouldn't be killed....but one on one, the Mage wouldn't be killed either. Same with shieldwhoring guardians who have it even easier, since there's no protection-scrolls against pets.

Warriors also have raze, which is 3-4 times faster than normal equilibrium casting circle/pentagram.