We didn't hide away in isolation. We abandoned the cities to their own devices, because they abandoned us. If sending an army of tae'dae and serenwilders into Old Celest meant the end of all cities, I imagine they'd have done it.

Ackleberry ran.

I'm actually trying to come up with some ideas for a role-play for him to grow up a little bit. Mostly because he has his eyes on one divine, and while I'm sure a pet kid faeling would be cute, he wouldn't be taken anywhere near so seriously.

We'll see Kalo grow up, but not too much. I love this childish B.S.

I think it's a little annoying that were are expected to sit back and watch other players, even members of our own city kill villages from our racial villages/areas.

I find it even more annoying that certain players can get away with doing certain things because of a certain god's order. This god doesnt care what you do as long as it gets him essence. Even.. If it's directly opposed to Celest like.. say..opening the gorgog rift?

Therefore.. I think I see Amaru's point. But he's not always the best at saying things.

Serenwilde was going to run to, but the taint did not come far enough.

There were just so many things that Amaru said that made me think he was George Bush, just by the way he contradicts himself every other sentance

Jeesh, it doesn't sound like Shallam 2.0: It sounds like another Glomdoring syndrome!

In honesty, I think the trouble comes from the OOC leak Celestia brings to us. Light, Water (sort of a stretch unless you're heavy on Christianity), Angels and Handmaidens. Stopping Corruption.

Everyone saw Celest and thought "Hey, these are the good guys!" and all of the Shallamites ran to it, just like how I avoided it BECAUSE it had a 'goody goody' feel. Even IF the Supernals AND the gods said "KILL THEM ALL! DIE DIE DIE!" people will still think of Celest as Shallam I think.

In short: Everyone wanted a world of black and white, and now that world is falling apart.

You know, from an RP standpoint, that's a VERY good story. The mighty empire recrumbles under a hostile civil war. Paladin against Paladin and Leader against God as the masses flee the city...

and yet the true horror comes upon them, like it never had when the Taint first came to the world: there is no place for them. Trapped between the Taint and a Commune that cares little for them, and realizing their Lifeguides, the Supernals, are trapped within the falling Star, the citizens are left with a bitter choice: to give up their belief, or to enter the crumbling walls once again and pray for salvation.

And meanwhile, the Star of Celest twinkles on.

Well, about time.
Let it fall apart completely and leave us in the "shades of gray" world where noone is "good" or "evil".

And not everyone wanted this, a lot of people didn't.

It really is too bad that this Divine Consulate nonsense is around, because it would be interesting to see Raezon patron the Aquamancers.

After all, He isn't Tainted... just kind of immoral and power-obsessed.

I'm all for the shades of gray world, but the help files about the communities pretty much made it inevitable how players would choose sides, and that the conflict would become viewed in good vs. evil terms.

"Yo: everyone who just wants to beat people up without guilt or conscience, go to Magnagora. Everyone who wants to beat people up in the name of some greater cause, go to New Celest. If you just want to be nasty but not necessarily beat people up, check out Glomdoring. Everyone else, into the Serenwilde."

The actual breakdown isn't 100% pure, but that's the breakdown that's encouraged, and the reason Serenwilde's the most populous; Magnagora's got military might that far exceeds its population; and the other two communities are left floundering with whoever they can get.

Players are primed by every other fantasy medium to see conflicts as good vs. evil. Few understand that other mediums can handle that conflict because they don't actually immerse the mind that calls itself "evil" so completely and relentlessly into living the role.

Don't ge me wrong. Evil exists IRL. I've seen its face. But it doesn't think it's evil, and it usually slinks about in the shadows in the form of lone individuals or small groups. When evil actually incorporates itself into the fabric of a society, it does so under the guise of passionate virtue (the quest for racial purity; the defense of Islam against the infidels; etc.)

No single society in the history of the human race has ever proudly worn the badge "I'm evil!" And yet every combat MUD I've ever played on has at least one faction that pretends to be from such a society.

Lusternia has the right of it in including conflicts about power and resources; and it tried to edge away from the "good vs. evil" by making evil a tangible quantity ("taint"). The simplisitic good vs. evil conflict that remains so obvious beneath that veneer may even have been inescapable as a means to attract players, because that's what players have come to expect.

In the end though, such definitions will always wind up shunting players into imbalanced, temprament-based factions, and will remain a constant source of friction and strife amongst the players themselves as they struggle for immersion in societies that would instantly crack under the weight of their own "purity" or "corruption" were they suddenly to appear in the real world.

There is no realistic way these societies could exist, ergo there is no way to realistically portray them, and we're all left to bickering over who's got it right, when in fact, no one does, because no one can.

Honestly, you can have different viewpoints in the same city. Why can't the aquamancers have a different outlook than the paladins?

There is room for warriors and the more peaceful folk in the same city. There are peaceful Magnagorans, for instance.

I don't know about all that. I'm an Aquamancer and I'm not peaceful. Heck, I go out of my way to be harsh and demanding.

Historical paragons of virtue have different outlooks. Think of Hajamin and Lacostian as Old Testament and New Testament, respectfully. The supernals also have these various outlooks as well.

By allowing those two outlooks to coexist in relatively equal parts in one city, you weaken the resolve of that city against its competitor that is more focused on one outlook. Magnagora may have peaceful people in it, but they sure as heck are not really consequential when it comes to the running of that city, or in the determination of that city's goals and objectives. Their peaceful nature stops where Magnagora's aggressive nature begins.

Also, Magnagorians, while some peaceful, some violent, and some just odd, all follow a similar belief: the Taint is good for us, good for everyone, and non-tainters are just being foolish. Some may argue that it makes them 'evil' while some think it's a proper way to be but those are details, debatable but doesn't detract from the Goal. Thus, you have unity. Serenwilde has a similar mindset: they may argue over their friendliness with Celest and other matters but their Goal is still the same: Protect Nature and protect the Fae. When either is threatened or even hinted at a threat, they all charge forward as one unified group.

Celest and Glomdoring simply don't have that. They are both divided among themselves over who they are and what they should be. It would be alright, nationwise, if one of the sides (EITHER side) were to win, take over, and boot out the opposition, but it hasn't realy happened. Instead, both sides just keep knicking at each other constantly.

It's not a bad thing from an RP standpoint: divided cities and peoples are the backdrop of thousands of good stories. However, the story always ends up with a weakened if not ruined organization. Thus, the states of Celest and Glomdoring.

Who to blame? Fate and the fact that this isn't a game of Starcraft, but a Roleplayer's world, where Bad Things happen for Bad reasons and we call it Good.

What to do about it? Two choices: Either someone FINALY steps in, declares Civil war, and WINS the nations, then brings it up again (either post-American style or Nazi Germany style, take your pick) or we start planning the funerals of these two nations and what to do afterwards.

Edit: I don't mean someone wins both Celest and Glom, just one faction wins their respective Nation: Something tells me someone will poke at me about it.

The trouble in early New Celestian history is that these peaceful people really did define where the city went in the first few weeks post open beta. We're still paying the price for that.

I loved that part.

Ya'll just need to re-define your outlook on Supernals. I mean, it's fairly easy.

Methrenton represents the obvious - combat. The blaze of the Holy Flame, and the necessity for violence and smashing the opposition of the Light no matter what. He is the Crusade, and represents the ideals of the Spanish Inquisition, although He believes in honor, so some of those tactics probably wouldn't fit well.

Shakaniel is the Defender, and shows the necessity to defend our own. A very simple idea, as one cannot solely rely on Offense and abandon defense. But that does not mean Shakaniel cannot advocate attacking.

Japhiel is the Merciful Judge - Merciful indeed, for those whom go up against the Light are spared the humiliation of defeat, and given the peace of death.

Raziela represents the warmth and love the Light has for those of it, and it's acceptance of others who want to COME to the Light. If they don't want to, revert to Methrenton. Smoosh.

<3 And Elohora is old testament god. Hells yea.

Maybe it'd be easier to elect one Supernal's teachings for the city's counsil to follow, the other Supernals would still be important, but have no effect on the Counsil's desicion in city matters.

Like, elect Methrenton as supernal leader for your city, and enforce his teachings, so you get rid of the snugglebunnies meddling with city affairs and decisions.

Or elect Raziela, so you get rid of everyone that doesn't want to snuggle, from meddling with city business.

Elohora, obviously. Who is a compilation of all of the Supernals - The Light given flesh.

Not Elahora, then you're just where you started again, not knowing what to do. Just because she is a compilation. You need one kind of teaching, not a mixture of all, like now.. basically you only have two choices, Methrenton or Raziela.