Unknown2005-10-18 01:17:00
Yeah, and pointing staffs is just as overpowered.
A guardian can't do anything to a mage who is attacking from a distance, it's rather unfair.
A guardian can't do anything to a mage who is attacking from a distance, it's rather unfair.
Geb2005-10-18 01:44:51
QUOTE(Alger @ Oct 18 2005, 12:46 AM)
geb if you're going to compare damage you have to compare your speed too.
and as a damage warrior diamante was way easie to deal with. Igasho - lvl2 slower balance tae'dae lvl3 slower balance. Everytime he hit me sure it went for huge but that doesnt mean much if the gaps inbetween those hits are huge as well.
and as a damage warrior diamante was way easie to deal with. Igasho - lvl2 slower balance tae'dae lvl3 slower balance. Everytime he hit me sure it went for huge but that doesnt mean much if the gaps inbetween those hits are huge as well.
207538
My speed was as a Merian and I did include in my statement "All things remaining the same". Last, you still have the simple solution of shielding. When was the last time a shield stopped lunges?
Alger2005-10-18 01:49:57
okay so we can shield and you can... lets see... web the warrior! you even got phantoms to do it passively. Cant lunge through that.
Geb2005-10-18 01:54:07
QUOTE(Alger @ Oct 18 2005, 01:34 AM)
1 second slower is 5 second attack frame
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diamante hits me for 2k in a 5 second attack fram = 400dps
lets even go with Narsrim's figure which is 2.5k so thats 500dps
(If that was 1 second faster then thats 500dps on first figure, 625dps on second. 1 second is a lot)
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geb hits me for 1.9k on a 3 second attack frame(?)
1.9k/3 = 633.3dps (not including phantoms demesne and turtles)
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So who has bigger damage?
Then consider who has the passive hinder like ents, phantoms, darkseed, demesne etc. Who's dps gets reduced more?
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diamante hits me for 2k in a 5 second attack fram = 400dps
lets even go with Narsrim's figure which is 2.5k so thats 500dps
(If that was 1 second faster then thats 500dps on first figure, 625dps on second. 1 second is a lot)
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geb hits me for 1.9k on a 3 second attack frame(?)
1.9k/3 = 633.3dps (not including phantoms demesne and turtles)
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So who has bigger damage?
Then consider who has the passive hinder like ents, phantoms, darkseed, demesne etc. Who's dps gets reduced more?
207560
Actually we know it was 1863 on a 3.6-second time frame as a merian. Also, you are neglecting to mention that without the aid of deep water, the damage was 1580. Without the aid of the War blessing I had at the time, the damage is lower. Plus, you did not mention that you took only 1200 damage with +4k health when we were outside of deep water. So this just shows that damage does scale with the size in health. Next, my staff does not give wound damage and so the person does not have to choose between applying health to his wounds or sipping it to heal his damage. Last, evoking pentagram stops my demesne effects and my staff. Using a protection scroll also protects you from my major demesne effects from a distance. Last time I looked, we do not have a scroll that protects us from Lunge, and we all know how well parrying, rebounding, and evoking pentagram helps us avoid those lunge type of attacks.
Geb2005-10-18 01:56:09
QUOTE(Alger @ Oct 18 2005, 02:49 AM)
okay so we can shield and you can... lets see... web the warrior! you even got phantoms to do it passively. Cant lunge through that.
207622
You can web me too. I can't staff through webbing. Phantoms give such insignificant damage, that anyone who can heal afflictions can ignore the damage.
Alger2005-10-18 02:20:40
Geb you're the one who said 1.9k in this thread. Of course now you want to clarify and I'm the one neglecting to say things... right. Tell me how do I stop you from flood/melding, how do i reverse your meld, how do avoid this deep water staffcasting? Dont tell me I just shouldnt fight you in your demesne last ffa that I fought you in your words were "What you expect me to go out of my demesne?"
Additional damage from phantoms is not insignificant when someone is blasting me with a staff. Yes I can web too, but the point is you're saying I can stop your attack with an active move and I just said well so can you.
Using as scroll mid combat isnt exactly ideal its not like rebound where I can use it all I want. Its eq cost vs how easy for you to take it down makes it a non-viable form of defence. Its intention was to reduce your demesne effects while you werent engaging us in combat.
As for your health to damage ratio. Maybe you know since we dont have the demesne or the passive capabilities other classes do and also have less damage over time maybe the health is actually there to make up for that difference.
You did 29% of my max health surged, unsurged you did 32% if I remember right.
Additional damage from phantoms is not insignificant when someone is blasting me with a staff. Yes I can web too, but the point is you're saying I can stop your attack with an active move and I just said well so can you.
Using as scroll mid combat isnt exactly ideal its not like rebound where I can use it all I want. Its eq cost vs how easy for you to take it down makes it a non-viable form of defence. Its intention was to reduce your demesne effects while you werent engaging us in combat.
As for your health to damage ratio. Maybe you know since we dont have the demesne or the passive capabilities other classes do and also have less damage over time maybe the health is actually there to make up for that difference.
You did 29% of my max health surged, unsurged you did 32% if I remember right.
Geb2005-10-18 04:31:10
QUOTE(Alger @ Oct 18 2005, 03:20 AM)
Geb you're the one who said 1.9k in this thread. Of course now you want to clarify and I'm the one neglecting to say things... right. Tell me how do I stop you from flood/melding, how do i reverse your meld, how do avoid this deep water staffcasting? Dont tell me I just shouldnt fight you in your demesne last ffa that I fought you in your words were "What you expect me to go out of my demesne?"
Additional damage from phantoms is not insignificant when someone is blasting me with a staff. Yes I can web too, but the point is you're saying I can stop your attack with an active move and I just said well so can you.
Using as scroll mid combat isnt exactly ideal its not like rebound where I can use it all I want. Its eq cost vs how easy for you to take it down makes it a non-viable form of defence. Its intention was to reduce your demesne effects while you werent engaging us in combat.
As for your health to damage ratio. Maybe you know since we dont have the demesne or the passive capabilities other classes do and also have less damage over time maybe the health is actually there to make up for that difference.Â
You did 29% of my max health surged, unsurged you did 32% if I remember right.
Additional damage from phantoms is not insignificant when someone is blasting me with a staff. Yes I can web too, but the point is you're saying I can stop your attack with an active move and I just said well so can you.
Using as scroll mid combat isnt exactly ideal its not like rebound where I can use it all I want. Its eq cost vs how easy for you to take it down makes it a non-viable form of defence. Its intention was to reduce your demesne effects while you werent engaging us in combat.
As for your health to damage ratio. Maybe you know since we dont have the demesne or the passive capabilities other classes do and also have less damage over time maybe the health is actually there to make up for that difference.Â
You did 29% of my max health surged, unsurged you did 32% if I remember right.
207656
Yes, I did do 29% to 32% of your health in damage to you. That is still not greater than 57% percent of your health that some warriors do to mages. Or, with the aid of some of their damage increasing abilities, outright kill the mage. Also your dps numbers are skewed, because mages for the most part do not last as long against warriors versa warriors lasting against mages. That is why you have to use proportions, because in the end dead is dead. It does not matter if the mage has a higher dps, if he can be killed in two hits by the warrior, while it takes him 10 to 15 hits to kill said warrior (If the warrior is at least a somewhat competent healer).
Terenas2005-10-18 06:10:28
Geb does about 25% of my maxhealth in water through my natural cold resist, fire vial, drawdown, frost cloak, 115/108 fullplate, trans resilience. That damage is pretty high, but at least it's easily negated, I can keep him webbed faster than he can tipheret or writhe.
Unknown2005-10-18 06:57:06
And violet/kether does NOT need to made even more insane than it is now.
1000 damage every 2 1/2 seconds is bad enough.
1000 damage every 2 1/2 seconds is bad enough.
Ixion2005-10-18 10:26:09
For me its like 750 every 4 seconds, pshh. I dont have weak viscanti int either
Unknown2005-10-18 11:12:09
At least that sort of damage gives a bit longer we can wait before running off screaming. 
I'm hoping you have at least 15 int though.
Remember, in dreamform you have to rely on only regeneration to heal.
I'm hoping you have at least 15 int though.Remember, in dreamform you have to rely on only regeneration to heal.
Daevos2005-10-18 13:43:51
So basically you believe that you should be in no danger as you attack people in dreamform huh.
Unknown2005-10-18 13:52:54
Nope.
But the risk should be proportionate to the gain. One non-crappy violeter means I have to leave the room in about 15 seconds or die. It almost always takes longer than 15 seconds to achieve some noticeable detriment in dreamform. Since you can have multiple violeters defending you, what are you complaining about?
But the risk should be proportionate to the gain. One non-crappy violeter means I have to leave the room in about 15 seconds or die. It almost always takes longer than 15 seconds to achieve some noticeable detriment in dreamform. Since you can have multiple violeters defending you, what are you complaining about?
Daevos2005-10-18 14:00:56
Arguing the fact that you seem to think that just because Mugwumps with high int for a example can actually make a dreamweaver run. You seem to be arguing that Violet/Kether are fine. But it's not since why should only races with high int and eq bonuses stand a chance one on one against a dreamweaver.
I guess though it goes back to my earlier rhetorical question. Do we expect mages' ability to fight to only be effected by strength?
Here's another thought actually, what if warriors had a new skill, lets call it juggernaut. Which allowed them to completely harden their body, and make themselves invulnerable to all magic attacks, most physical attacks, and all afflictions. Also their ability to attack would be somewhat different, since their new form significantly alters their ability to utilize their muscles, but also opens the path to new martial arts. Would you think it fair if the only way to harm them was a skill in Combat that was dependant completely on strength?
I guess though it goes back to my earlier rhetorical question. Do we expect mages' ability to fight to only be effected by strength?
Here's another thought actually, what if warriors had a new skill, lets call it juggernaut. Which allowed them to completely harden their body, and make themselves invulnerable to all magic attacks, most physical attacks, and all afflictions. Also their ability to attack would be somewhat different, since their new form significantly alters their ability to utilize their muscles, but also opens the path to new martial arts. Would you think it fair if the only way to harm them was a skill in Combat that was dependant completely on strength?
Unknown2005-10-18 14:04:58
Let me ask you this, why do you think violet and kether are too weak?
What is your evidence, so to speak?
What is your evidence, so to speak?
Daevos2005-10-18 14:28:54
It's customary to not answer a question with a question, you know.
Unknown2005-10-18 14:45:24
You choose a low-int race, you're going to be weak using magical attacks. :shrug: Don't try and fight a dreamweaver in dreamform like that.
I chose a low-con race, and I can't survive a knight in person long enough to fight back, and even if I could I sure as hell won't kill them with my high intelligence. I have to do something other than stand there and point my cudgel at them over and over again.
Regardless, your argument is predicated on the fact that low-int races are actually significantly disadvantaged. I'm asking, how have you come to that conclusion?
I chose a low-con race, and I can't survive a knight in person long enough to fight back, and even if I could I sure as hell won't kill them with my high intelligence. I have to do something other than stand there and point my cudgel at them over and over again.
Regardless, your argument is predicated on the fact that low-int races are actually significantly disadvantaged. I'm asking, how have you come to that conclusion?
Acrune2005-10-18 14:47:07
QUOTE(Daevos @ Oct 18 2005, 10:00 AM)
Here's another thought actually, what if warriors had a new skill, lets call it juggernaut. Which allowed them to completely harden their body, and make themselves invulnerable to all magic attacks, most physical attacks, and all afflictions. Also their ability to attack would be somewhat different, since their new form significantly alters their ability to utilize their muscles, but also opens the path to new martial arts. Would you think it fair if the only way to harm them was a skill in Combat that was dependant completely on strength?
207931
You forgot their muscles choking them so they can't sip, and their hands are clenched shut so they can't use weapons. Not to mention all that muscle hardening sure would drain that endurance quickly.
The bias in these forums is amazing.
Daevos2005-10-18 14:49:09
Do they are significantly disadvantaged against dreamweavers since their own form of attack is dependant on int. Also you argument about your own race is quite faulty, since faeling druids can beat warriors, quite easily actually with sap.
Unknown2005-10-18 14:56:18
QUOTE(Daevos @ Oct 18 2005, 02:49 PM)
Do they are significantly disadvantaged against dreamweavers since their own form of attack is dependant on int.
207944
Well, duh. It's a magical damage attack. But if I have 8 dex and parry 20% of the time, should I be demanding it be changed because someone with 16 dex parries 25% of the time? That variation is dependent on dex, but it's hardly significant enough to be worried about.
QUOTE
Also you argument about your own race is quite faulty, since faeling druids can beat warriors, quite easily actually with sap.
Two lunge combos from Ixion kill me. Two. Sorry.
