Look at the viscanti portrait in the web

I guess for me a creature with fish like apearance, too big eyes and a bluish skin wouldn't be beautiful. Another Merian would find it amazing and gorgeous. Same with furballs, or krokani or whatever.

The only races that by occidental standards could be "beautiful" de per se would be humans, elfen and faelings, and mostly due to our lore.

And twisted things can have its own kind of beauty on it's twistiness I guess. To me they won't be beautiful as my char is an elfen, but for another Viscanti (most of Magnagora population) red eyes and purple skin might be the most fashionable thing in the world

I was under the impression that there was a lot of variety in viscanti appearance. That is, depending on their line they may be more or less twisted. This could be taken to the extreme, where they are either monstrous or seemingly normal.

My version, I believe, would likely be the version of the general populace of the Basin. If Magnagora wants to claim its beautiful, that's fine. However, Nokraenom has attempted to argue in the past that the Viscanti/Taint is in fact beautiful from a non-taint perspective (something like they were "changed" yet still appealing... and this followed a request for the description of a tainted room to be more neutral and less "this ugly crap infects the land."). I question how this was drawn given how everything else seems to point in the opposite direction.

Narsrim, meet Estarra.




To which Estarra replied:

Trashing someone's opinions ("Rubbish"), and being snide ("or does only your version of beauty count?") is hardly making a very good effort.

Granted, I'm being a knob, but oh well. The admins/mod will tell me to shut up soon enough.

So to clarify:

The Viscanti are in fact hideous and nasty from a neutral perspective, but they prize surface beauty amongst themselves (a sort of "you are uglier than me") yet realistically do not possess such a trait as a race when compared as a whole.... right?

Check out the picture our divine admin had an artist draw of the viscanti race, that voids any claim of viscanti being inheritedly ugly.

You call that what? Pretty, Sexy, Attractice?

It's beautiful.

In fact, standard beauty in Lusternia does not exist, because there are 18 races, and members of each race will find members of their own race more beautiful than the other races, in real life, there are only humans.. so creating an image of standard beauty is possible, but it isn't in Lusternia.

And your proof of your POV is

1. The description of a Geomancer ability that is available to all Geomancers and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Viscanti.

2. The Viscanti helpfile in which they are called demonic (which does not equate to ugly), and the reference to the Tainted races breeding to produce the Viscanti. It does not, as you try and suggest, say that they are inbreeding. It says the Tainted races bred together. Interbreeding != inbreeding.

3. The Geomancer helpfile, saying the Plane of Earth is assoicated with disease. The Plane of Earth has nothing to do specifically with the Viscanti race, once again.

4. The Nihilist helpfile, saying that Nihilists are concerned with material wealth over esoteric concerns. Esoteric concerns would be things like philosophy and the arts. An obsession with physical appearance would NOT be an esoteric concern.

The proof of my POV is:

1. The design document.

2. Statements by Estarra, the Game Producer, supporting this.

3. Official Lusternian artwork.

So I'm inclined to say, you're wrong, because A.) your evidence is flawed. B.) the game designer's statements disprove your view .

Pulling real life beauty standards into a fantasy world with 18 races is just soddy roleplay. What're you gonna say to an orclach female, "You're ugly because you aren't human!"..? I'm sure the male orclach will perceive it a lot differently.

What if the human race wouldn't exist in Lusternia, where does that leave your beauty standards?

Hence, Lusternian beauty standards do not exist, it could only exist if there would only be one race.

Simply put, beauty is a physical condition that exclaims, "I have good genes for healthy offspring!" You can fit that into every racial paradigm.

Correct. It has to deal with the Taint, which is a facet of the Viscanti. Lisaera has made it clear many times that the Viscanti are in facted, "tainted." If the taint is foul, nasty, and smelly... then I do imagine the race made by the taint likely shares some of those characteristics, no?

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in·ter·breed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-brd)
v. in·ter·bred, (-brd) in·ter·breed·ing, in·ter·breeds
v. intr.

"To breed within a narrow range or with closely related types or individuals; inbreed." - quoted directly from dictionary.com

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The Plane of Earth was not a place of disease and such pre-Taint. Disease and such is a characteristic of taint. Viscanti are a race of tainted beings... see the connection?

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Fair enough.

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The proof of my POV is:



What?



Estarra said in her quote that this concept may have not manifested upon implementation leading one to believe that while it may have been how it was supposed to be in theory, it isn't so in reality.



I really don't see how this proves anything. The concept of beauty that I was working towards was that any non-tainted being is going to look upon something tainted and claim it to be disgusting and repulsive because it is a twisted manipulation of each race's unique beauty. I was simply wondering if you were trying to argue that the Viscanti are in fact beautiful in a general sense (which I argue they are not) or that they are "pretty to other Viscanti," which is about as good as it could likely get for them.



A) I've justified the evidence
B) The game designer even mentioned that while it may have been the intent, it wasn't necessarily the case.

Narsrim, "beauty in a general sense", doesn't exist in Lusternia. Claiming it does is nothing more than pulling in real life opinions where they've no place.

I disagree. The standard of what is beautiful is different. We have stats that determine how "strong" you are or how "intelligent" you are... and we also have a stat for beauty: charisma... and just before you try to argue that, I've quoted dictionary.com once more:

charisma

n : a personal attractiveness that enables you to influence others

While this may not be the conventional sense of beauty you think of, I think it does provide some sense to establish it in Lusternia.

Charisma is not beauty dude, it's nothing but that, charisma.

An exceedingly beautiful woman can be repulsive as a snake by her actions and manners. Hence have very low charisma!

Again, beauty standards do not exist in Lusternia.. only if there'd be a single race, which is not the case. Real life beauty judgements should be left out of a fantasy realm with multiple races, they only break down the roleplay.

Damn right. And a homely woman can draw crowds with sheer magnetism. Charisma has little to do with looks and everything to do with projecting confidence.

I think it really stems to what "beauty" is.



If we take something as basic as the definition of beauty (or even consider a definition of charisma), it can be / is very much related to charisma.

Why can Faelings charm over a Viscanti better than a Viscanti if they value only surface beauty? (I know, it has to do with the mechanics, but from a roleplay perspective... one must wonder given we have to go by it)

Beauty is far more than just "looks" too. If you want to take a deeper definition of charisma and toss it around, then you also need to take a deeper definition of beauty.

pe·dan·tic adj.

Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: marked by a narrow, often tiresome focus on or display of learning and especially its trivial aspects.