All the time, no wonder the only shop keeper left in all of the Ethereal plane is the falconer(to hard for a 56lb leprechaun to steal a 600lb eagle i geuss), there used to be oh so many shops, eons ago... but the leprechauns cleared them all out.

She has been taking lessons in talking Street.

Im not one to go against the Divine if I dont have to, nor anyone else unless you irritate Dia.

Divine grace should exclude having loyals about you. Just a thought. Stealing is an offense in some of the guilds, guess not all. Or theyre just not upheld

Right. "This guy just killed a rat, so I'm gonna go slay my guildmaster". It's both killing in general.

Guess what, Nihilism basically says "anything is right if it benefits you". Yet we have laws against theft. It's all about decency I guess.
I'd just like to remind that everyone cried "griefer" when Yrael was robbing shops. Without using exploits, mind you.

Btw, Jadryga, has that situation been resolved by administration yet?

Using a leprechaun is different from using Divine Grace.



I'm very happy for the Nihilists.



I am pretty sure I defended what Yrael did, but I'd also like to add that the Nihilists did nothing about it for a long time.

I believe their point was that Yrael did not abuse Grace to steal.

Saying that you cannot delve into it since it was Grace from the Divine strikes me as foolish - there have been two cases of weapons being reforged by the Divine because they were STOLEN in battle (which has nothing to do with illegal actions). Why exactly would it be thought the Divine would approve of their gift of grace being abused to steal from a shop?

Abusing grace is wrong - pure and simple. I'm rather disappointed personally in how things have gone in character so far, but if it takes 'babysitting' to rectify the situation and determine for everyone what should be common sense, so be it, but more is the pity. The time spent to do this could be spent on things made for player enjoyment.

Yes, abusing grace is wrong. But how are players to know what is and what is not abuse in any given situation? We've had past experiences where grace was used to do things that seemed abusive to all sides involved, and yet Divine reportedly came out and said it was allowable and not abuse. Grace of Innocence is different from Divine Grace only in ... length of time? The effect during that time is the same. That specific one I'm thinking of was using Grace of Innocence to do the Fae quest with honeycakes. A non-Innocent could've went and gotten Divine Grace and done the same, keeping track of time ... would that have been also allowable or somehow (and if so, why?) different and non-allowable? We've also had (player) cries of abuse of Divine Grace during village influencing, which (to my knowledge) hasn't gotten a response.

To expand things a bit absurdly, we also can't always rely on common sense ICly. It's not common sense to hate, distrust, etc. others with other goals and affiliations, or to kill them if all past experiences have shown that they'll be restored to life ... yet such things happen all the time and we wouldn't have much of a game without them.


If I allow someone to have or use something of mine, why should I rely on or expect someone else to punish them for it if they misuse it? The responsibility would be mine.

Edit: (Clarified the last two sentences.)

That seemed to be an aside. The point, as I took it, was that the Nihilists have rules against theft and are therefore more decent than the Moondancers. My point was that the rules have not always been there and a long period of time existed when Yrael was allowed to steal as he wished.



Tsuki summed up what I would have said. The Divine give this Grace, how can it be up to us to decide what is and is not abuse? We can assume, as Tsuki has said, but we've had that thrown back in our faces before.

If the same divinities forge items for weapons stolen in battle where there is no abuse, just people being mean, why would you expect them to tolerate abuse of grace to steal in an illegal manner?

How utterly disappointing. Most if not all the administration abhors the idea of having to babysit players because select individuals have no thought of showing restraint or using common sense in consideration of their fellow players, or the set policies. The next time it is asked why some skill or area is not in the realm, why new restrictions are being added, why an event might not be in the works at the moment - just remember, having to babysit you all takes time away from being able to do these things.

We were trying to show respect to the Divine by not assuming to punish on Their behalf.

ICly, that may work. Don't expect them to appreciate it OOCly, or even ICly.

Clearly, I see that now.

If the Moondancers wish to allow theft, that is their choice to do so (even if I personally abhor theft, as I find it more detrimental to a player than a simple death). If that is the case, however, they should not be letting it slide using the Divine as their reasoning, much less in a case where abuse was evident.

I can sell you a car, which for all obvious purposes, is used with the intent as transportation only. If you abuse that car to go and run someone over, no jury is going to declare you 'not guilty' simply because I gave you the oppurtunity to purchase that vehicle.

Just because you have something, does NOT mean you use it for abuse. Nor should that abuse be tolerated.

We are not letting it slide, we are -were now, I suppose - expecting that the Divine might want to punish someone Themselves for abusing Their gift.

As has been said, we've not had a problem with it in the past so we've had no need to address it as seriously as we've been forced to discuss it among the Moon clan now.

Maybe we've made some mistakes from an out of character point of view, but we make the decisions with our in character roles as our main concern.

Why would you let an administrative punishment you'll hear nothing of unless Voron divulges it to you sway your IC decision? Or even a Divine punishment? It's not like he can only be punished once. He could be punished on all ends, or only a few or one, or none.

Well I was under the impresison that Divine Grace was an in character function, not one of those 'suspension of disbelief' things we just pretend don't exist, or mystery away with nods and smiles. As such, I thought there would be some Divine punishment which would be evident to the rest of us.

As for punishing him ourselves; we aren't willing to do so and then have the Divine come back and tell us that it wasn't actually abuse, as has happened before.

Like I said, if we are told in character that the Divine are not happy with Their gift being used in this way, I am sure Tsuki and the rest of us will do something about it. At the moment, all we know is that we are getting smacked about on the forums for sticking to our roles. I'm not about to jump in game with information I know from the these boards (I am at work, anyway, so doing much in game is an effort).

EDIT: I understand and appreciate that you don't want to hold our hands and warm our milk. But...I don't know, maybe I'm being too much of an IC/OOC Nazi. I might leave this thread for a while and come back with some fresh thoughts later.

I don't personally see how my comment wasn't clear, though I'm rather tired myself. He is not limited to only being punished once - even if the IC divine deem it ok by their standards, your guild can say it isn't (and punish him for it.) Just the same, you can say you have no problem with it as a guild, but the Divine can say it is not ok, and punish him for it. And beyond those two cases, there is still the Admin actions being taken (OOC) which are seperate from both.

The guild and divine actions shouldn't be affected by the Administrative punishments. You can be an IC/OOC nazi, and still be able to use this reasoning.

And if I came off as aggressive to the point of 'smacking you around on the forums', I apologize. I happen to feel theft is one of the greatest things that can harm a player (as an administator, a divine, and just as the person behind the screen) and didn't appreciate the idea of someone getting away with abusive theft with the Divine being the reasoning.

Theft is possible in Lusternia because coding allows for it. It's possible/allowable in the Moondancers not because coding allows for it but because we don't prohibit it because it's the nature of one of the Fae. And yes, that's a bit odd, but it was established as precedent before Tsuki even stepped through the Portal much less became High Priestess and still has vocal supporters. In this particular case, we're not not-punishing for the theft because the Divine allow theft. We're not-punishing for the theft because the theft was an injury to to Taint and enemies of the commune/guild.

The use of Grace is not as straight-forward, and is why the situation isn't fully resolved. None of the players/characters involved, even Voron when he was spoken to, thought that using Grace in the theft was an admirable thing. The use/misuse of any Divine-granted abilities (and I use the term "abilities" loosely) is a murky area. As yet another example from what I mentioned earlier, were members of Fain's Order punished for using worldburn in Stewartsville to kill through sanctuary and Innocence? In that case, just as this, it was agreed on by most parties that it was "lame" and the ability to do so was even removed by the administration. To my knowledge, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the original act(s) weren't administratively punished. Why should killing many people, one of whom was a new player to the game and Innocent, be more forgiveable an act? Also lacking in my knowledge is the Divinely-forged weapons. I've only recently heard ICly about Diamante's swords, and I haven't heard ICly or OOCly about whatever else there is out there. If I don't know something, I can't use knowledge of it to extrapolate that other things might be allowable.

Administrative punishments, and "babysitting," also ensure that the game remains fair, and thus also remains an inviting atmosphere, for players. On that note, it's probably a good time (though it's never really a bad time) to mention how much players, myself in particular, appreciate administrative work and efforts.

That previous post explains so much.

I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Good thought, good thought ... punish for disrespecting Divine by misuse (even if that determination is ours, which is still somewhat icky) of their gift?

That'd call for restitution to the Divine, rather than to the victim(s) of thievery. It's still something, though.