If you wish to permit the theft, that is your decision. It seems to go directly against the outrage that seemed to have been shown earlier, however. Permit it, or don't, but insinuating you don't stand for it and then seeing it is being let slide is generally going to end up with having people upset with you. (Or, at least misunderstanding you later, both of which have arisen within this thread.)

Per other administrative issues, no administrator should divulge what was said within them, or the punishments that were or were not given as a result of them. The two being referred to in this case however are very different, and will obviously be viewed as such.

If they do need to be compared, however, just remember : Two wrongs don't make it right. It's just one additional step towards moving in the wrong direction.

I tend to hear on these forums, the following.

I really want X, but I just can't do X because ICly I wouldn't be able to. Please soemone come down and give me an IC reason to do X, or make some OOC change so that I don't even have to do X.

I don't know if thats called Hypocrasy, or a double standard, or what... but anyway I look at it, its smells of illogical teenager nonsense.

Tsuki's post has finally made me understand where the nonsense is comming from.

Actually, it's more to being called consistency, dear. It's hypocrisy if what's wanted/said/claimed and what's done are in conflict and by the same aspect. IC and OOC, or character and player, are different aspects.

Example in this case being: Player doesn't like thievery and has been trying to figure out how it can be punished. Player can't make Character punish for something Player doesn't like, and Character--even if inclined to be influenced by Player's moral reasons--will not do anything that helps those who Character is against. Much of what Player finds most objectionable are things that are insanity to Character, and thus not applicable for her consideration.


Earlier outrage that caused any confusion was Player's outrage, as this forum here is more for Player to speak. It's up to Character to deal with the situation where it took place, though, not Player.

Let me explain the oddity with an anology.

I think it is morrally wrong to paint with the color blue. However, I want my room to be blue, so I ask my neighbor to paint the room blue for me.

Thats what it sounds like to me.

My point being, is that you as a player should not feel free to use these forums to get things done that you think you shouldn't be doing or being able to do. Because you are essentially asking other people to do what you think your not allowed to do.

It would most likely be better for everyone if you on your own came up with some nice IC explanation to explain away your true OOC motives and not ask other people to do it for you. (Other people in this instance is the administration and coders who have better things to do than fix your RP problems)

Edit: The above is ment to apply to all these reaccuring arguments. Theft, Astral plane, Catacombs, Alliances, Villages, or just about any contested area in the game that people tend to complain about. Its really unfair to both the other players and the admin.

I didn't think we were using the forums to get anything done. I would be happy for this thread to close and for the decisions to be left to the parties actually involved.

Read my edit... I was more commenting on a theme I saw across various threads that was confusing me, and this thread just happened to be the one to enlighten me.

Also happens to be further support to what Viravain was saying about how people will respond to you in the future.

Has anybody on the Moondancers considered the idea of aproaching Lisaera directly (or even that new Elcyrion divine, who shouldn't be biased as he's back so short ago) and asking them what they think of the subject?

I mean, you're not expecting Lisaera to react in game to what you post in teh forums, do you?

Using the divine nature of grace to get away with abusive theft must be the most blatant example of abusing 'roleplay' to get your way.. it's used very often, but I can't think of any event as disgusting as this here.

It's also funny how Quidgyboo was so fast on calling people griefers for the least of actions, and now he's defending those same actions, when his side is the one enacting them.. though no one ever sunk as deep as pleading for abusing grace like this, untill now.

Imagine, for more than a real year, you bash, quest, work and trade.. you can finally buy a shop, you trans your tradeskill and suddenly, some retard moonbeams to you in your stockroom, and just starts grabbing all your possessions and all your gold, everything you worked a whole real year for.. and there is nothing you can do about it, because he is under divine grace.

You are seriously defending this? I wish there was a spit-face smiley, this is beyond disgusting.

No closing threads. Closing threads is evil.

I did? I don't remember ever using the term 'griefer', except to laugh at it. Perhaps my sarcasm wasn't clear, I apoligse if you didn't get it .



Ah you're such a charmer.

Honestly, wtf?

No amount of well placed words is going to remove the facts of the situation:

+ Divine Grace is given by the Divine. If there is a problem with how it is used, it should be handled by the Divine. If this is too much to ask, then give it a new name... come up with something else to call it... but as long as it is known as the "Grace of the Gods," do not expect players to respond to it IC on an administrative level instead of an IC level.

+ Lisaera has said nothing in the past about stealing. From a purely philosophical view point, we have two strong reasons to no ban stealing:

1. Leprechauns are bloody thieves. They do nothing but steal. The Moondancers are sworn to protect and cherish the Fae. You cannot cherish a thief if you condemn another.

2. Mother Moon has several phases, one of which is the Dark Moon. The Dark Moon is all about negative energies, emotions, and actions. It is through learning to tap into your negative side (with moderation) that you achieve that sort of "balance" that makes you closer to her and more powerful. For this reason, the Moondancers aren't snuggly. We aren't "good". If necessary, we do not object but encourage people to do what it takes to see our enemies fall and our kin safe.

+ A lot of information on this case has spilled over from this thread to IC, which is a shame. If anything, I think the Moondancers have done the best possible job to try and keep what is said here and what a person knows IC separate. Just because stealing from a player is "lame" doesn't mean you should embrace OOC information and punish, punish, punish.

+ You have suggested that stealing is worse than death. That's a OOC viewpoint if there ever was one. What is more important, the ring on your finger or your life? Who is going to say: kill me, but don't touch my wallet! It is silly and disheartening for players to be expected to recongize this as "how it is" when the only basis is OOC rationale.

I think the point was that OOC stealing was worse for the player behind the character (yes, Nasrim, there're people behind those citydwellers ) than the at most 5 minutes of having to pray.

IC I guess it depends on the char. Stealing from Richter would be like killing him, whereas killing an Ur'Guard seems to be the cool thing to do to give them lich.

PD: No offense intended, Richter. I am not giving people ideas I hope

However, the Moondancers can ONLY react to this on an IC basis. I felt Viravain was trying to argue that we should be considering that death isn't nearly as bad as stealing IC... which I think is absolutely ridiculous.

Furthermore, the Moondancers have no reason to condemn stealing, but rather the opposite, we have two reasons (stated above) to view it as something grave but necessary in some situations. The only area we really have to punish Voron in is the notion that this wasn't one of those "grave or extreme" situations. However given we have no laws about this, it is a sticky situation... which is why we are taking our time to make a solid decision that we can all justify not only in this case but future cases.

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I'd also like to emphasize that the Moondancers are not Admins. It isn't our place to decide what is and is not an abuse of game mechanics. In fact, I would imagine/hope that Admins wouldn't try and pressure organizations into taking upon their role to deal out punishments.

The only available information on Divine Grace suggests that is it "given by the Gods." As such, the Moondancers have no reason to police a God given blessing anymore than we do Truefavors.

On another note, I recently shouted that the Catacombs was occupied and any trespassers would be slain. Raezon and Shikari showed up with a message: don't invite Gods to kick your ass. Given this, I hope people can understand why Narsrim at least is hesitant IC to start barking out orders about what is considered "right and wrong" with Divine givings.

Just ask Lisaera directly about this special case and see what she says?
Hoping for her to decide you need Divine advice and grant it can mean a long while of waiting I think. As she used to be pretty much of the mind to give freedom to decide on player issues to players (and yes, sorry but this is a player issue as much as a "exploit" issue).

If you don't mind me nitpicking, considering a ring less important than a life is actualy an OOC concept. It's built on the fact that it's easier to get a ring than it is to rebuild an entire life.

IG, our characters should, by now, be well used to being so important to the fates that death is only a temporary condition, especialy if you've learned Lich, Conglu, ext. That's the real reason why we're so capable of killing and dying so easily. In Lusternia, it realy IS harder to get back a ring that can hold deep memories, or simply be expensive, than your life. Add to that the rarity of actual theft occuring as well (people get more bugged at rare things than the common: IRL, a shooting spree is front page news but a 10 car pileup that kills more people just means more traffic).

Thus, from an IC prespective, theft is a much more hostile act than killing. Odd, but so is walking on water.

In any case, the point of all this seems to be that your character can act like a jerk ICly and think they are noble, but OOCly you can't deny that they ARE acting like jerks. Best thing to do is to either accept the title, or not accept it and change your IC self (remembering you ARE the author of your character's story, not a spectator).

A note to contradict what I just said though: Remember that your actions and responces IC will affect the IG world. If you do allow theft with your own, you're welcoming theft to occur against you by another, no matter how much you cry about it OOCly.

Thus I ask the Moondancers, would you OOCly accept and enjoy a game where people turn to stealing to fight against you? That's not a loaded question: I was a thief in Aetolia and OOCly accepted the fact that people would steal from me and my allies in turn. If you don't mind someday seeing your shops emptied out then it's all ok. If it'll destroy your fun, then remember: Leprechauns CAN be banned for many good IC reasons, and it makes sense to not do something so that others don't start doing it (it's why we're alive IRL with all the nukes floating around).


Edit: NO, I'm not calling the Moondancers jerks, just used the word 'jerk' as an example. Sorry if it sounded wrong.

We had another case where someone was accused of stealing (but really didn't), which was discussed with Lisaera. At that time, it was motioned that we create laws to ban stealing. We decided with Lisaera that we should instead handle any future problems case-by-case. Our only rule would be that the Coven has the right to seize the items temporarily and decide if the person in question had the justification to steal.

In this case, Voron claims that stealing was an act that he had to truly strike a deep wound into a couple of our enemies. This is very much correct, the amount of damage he did inflict was indeed major. When asked if he truly was attempting to strike out more so than seize an opportunity for personal gain, he gave me all of the items as a gesture of faith with no assurance they would be returned.

If anything, I cannot possibly imagine Lisaera, based upon what she has said and told the Moondancers IC in the past, saying anything different. She has been consulted on issues like this and her opinions were used to help formulate our current standards.

Double post, meh.

This is a personal opinion. Some people could just as easily argue that the Fates will only save you so many times before your time is up. I personally think it degrades the fantasy setting for people to embrace the notion that they can die an infinite number of times with no "real" consequences other than experience. I would much rather it be treated as something grave, and if you are sent back by the Fates, you were damn lucky.



Your question is loaded. It is quite possible that Moondancers as a whole would accept it, however, that does not equate to enjoying it. I certainly wouldn't enjoy it, but I think I would have to accept it regardless.

Furthermore, shops are very well fortified. While it may suck if you are lagging like crazy or AFK, that's life. If you are experiencing either, a stockroom is not the place to hang out.

And finally, anything CAN be banned. Hell, we could come up with some retarded reason to ban leather bracers. However, that's not likely nor is it necessary. The Moondancers have taken a role so far that I think most of us understand and are comfortable with as the decisions are made (so far as I can tell from being on the inner side) on a general consensus.

Divine grace is indeed given by the divine, more specificly Estarra. There are however several IC reasons why a player org would punish anyone abusing this gift. A prime reason would be, what if Estarra decided the Moondancers as a guild where responsible for this by not teaching their novices that using Divine grace to steal is bad. And that the person in question wasn't in faulth, but the guild was. Now Icly Estarra is a god NOBODY can counter. You can have Lisaera try to explain it to her, but in the end Estarra could rip Lisaera's soul from existance. If Estarra got really mad, from an IC point of view she could just destroy the moondancers for this. (I doubt anyone knows enough ICly about Estarra to know if she has a nasty temper or not). Now I think none of the moondancer leadership would want to see this happen, and by punishing him severly and returning the stolen goods you could of come to apeace the situation.

Anyway thats just one of the many loopholes you could of used to punish someone for something that from an OOC point of view is terribly wrong and is really hurting someone's gamingexperience. Banning stealing obviously doesn't have to happen (personaly I don't mind if you steal one or two things from a shop or player, though there is no need to strip it bare) but when you steal you must always do it on the grounds of raiding: everyone involved must be able to be killed by skilled defenders.