Moonbeam wasn't abused. It did exactly as game mechanics allow and intend - he went from one room to another room, through a monolith sigil, in the same area.

The major problem here was that he abused grace.

Had he not, he probably would have gotten away anyway, as Jadryga was lagging rediculously. Which is one of those risks you take when you enter your shop room with serious lag.

Jadryga would have killed him before he took anything. If you look at her log, she tried to hit him before he started looting. He waited a while, said hello, loitered about, THEN took stuff. Doesn't look like someone who 'accidentally' abused grace, if you ask me.

No I don't believe he accidently abused it either. But, it was Grace that was abused, not Moonbeam. As YoLF said, Moonbeam did exactly as it was designed for, but Grace was used as a total protection to perform an aggresive action.

Well, what I meant was, it was a case of Moonbeam being used 'aggressively.' If such cases exist, it should be considered an aggressive action in general. It would certainly stop such situations from ever happening again, and the Divine from having to babysit us.

Generally Moonbeam is useless as an aggressive act. It is easy to move within the 6-12 seconds it takes to go through. I don't see why Moonbeam should be changed when it was Grace that caused the real issue - Jag had no way of dealing with the Graced Moondancer who was able to steal from the stockroom.

Learn to read. I posted earlier in this thread that I immediately informed Lisaera. Furthermore, I the only info on Divine Grace stipulates quite clearing it is from the Gods.

Do you just make this up? How do you know Grace comes from Estarra? The help scroll suggests the Fates/Gods (not Estarra) Could you cite something to back that up? Furthermore, if Estarra the all mighty, I exist outside of time, was pissed that some little Moondancer was abusing her grace, why didn't she revoke it on the spot instantly? These are all roleplay considerations.

Furthermore, I can tell you obviously have had no encounters with Estarra IC. Given what I know about Estarra, she's not going to be like: ZOMG Lisaera, *bitch slap* die for yo guild. Sorry, it doesn't happen like that.

If Jadryga would have killed him before he took anything, why did she let him beam to her in the first place. I'm willing to bet he would have still got quite a lot before she responded.

EDIT: Ignore me, I misread the log in question *mumble*

I'd like like to clarify (again):



This is the only information available on Grace. It suggests that for a short time after death, the Fates/Gods will empower a person with Grace such they are free from harm.

Now, people can talk about roleplay abuse or abuse in general, but those are all OOC concepts. So far as I am concerned, if the Gods were all pissed off IC, they would been like: *snap fingers* grace removed, *point Voron* he gets zapped on the spot. We all know OOC that's not likely... but there is no way the Moondancers can validate why a bunch of Gods who seemingly can defy time itself were not able to handle their own Grace upon Mortals and as such, the Moondancers are now Divine Grace police.

Hell, Shikari and Raezon told me that last time I made it clear "how it was" to be more considerate to Gods... or I'd die for it.

Accually I think if it would come to that Lisaera wouldn't even get involved. And I said it was only a possible RP reasoning. Estarra is creatorgod, it's my IC oppinion she provides this grace, perhaps by giving the fates the ability to cast it like a spell. And why would Estarra bother monitoring every mortal? She might not notice until alot of noise is made about it by mortals. After all if she can instantly stop things she would of instantly stopped Viravain from breaking the seal of Nature.

For all I care it could be your IC oppinion Lisaera provides this for your guild. I can also imagine you wouldn't want to piss her of, and you wouldn't want to piss off the fates either.

What you meaned to say however is you have no OOC intend to take actions against it, and by such refuse to consider any possible IC reasoning to condem it.

It's funny in some topics people complain about to much divine interference and here they are saying the divine should interfere while it is entirely possible to solve it as players.

To be quite honest, I couldn't see Lisaera proving grace for her own mother if said mother was mortal (yes, I know it doesn't work like that). She's just not the grace-giving type from what I've seen of her. My point was simply that the only information on Grace places it as something of the Gods/Fates. Given the Fates are the ones who resurrect you upon death, I would gather it would more likely be their product. Grace stems from a Divine-ish source. The Moondancers are not Divine-ish source police.

And what I'm saying is that based upon an OOC notion (abuse of grace), there is no IC motivation or cause for the Moondancers to act in a manner to "police grace." If you will, we don't have anything IC so far that even shows the Gods disapprove. I messaged Lisaera to inform her - I heard nothing back. Narsrim doesn't even know IC that there was an "abuse of grace." That entire notion has stemmed from OOC responses and discussion.

Furthermore, my concern was divine interference on an IC level. Abuse of Grace is not an IC ordeal. It is a game mechanic issue that is 100% OOC.

Here is an reason for you personally to atleast yell at him Narsrim, you are in Haja's order right. I think it's rather dishonourable to thief while graced, I'm sure you do to.

You can adjust your RP, you could invent reasons why the moondancers would not tolerate the abuse of grace. Maybe the Moondancers would just demand respect for the creators of life or something. (I'm not very creative right now so yes all examples are lame). Bottomline there is always a way to punish someone ICly for acts you find unbecoming from an OOC perspective. And really it would be quite fun for finding an accually nice RP reason for punishing him. (well ok I would find it fun because I'm utterly bored right now)

Anyway I suppose he'll be dealed with, if the moondancers fail to deal with it he'll rest assure the first moment a Mag will be able to touch him he'll regret ever trying to moonbeam in a shop. (Yes these kind of unranked people I don't count as protected by common curtesy towards novices)

One positive thing for me that has come about this is my view on honor and how conflicting it is for me to be a member of Lord Hajamin's Order and a Moondancer. Narsrim struggles to make sense of it, but he will not hold Voron accountable to his own code of ethics instead of the Coven's as such would be corrupt.

And as I said earlier, the Moondancers could come up with a reason to ban leather bracers, create a law as to why wear bracers let alone leather bracers is a TERRIBlE thing... but that'd be silly. Lisaera has already told us that we don't need a law for everything little thing and nor should we. We embrace freedom and only make "rules" when we must for the best of the Coven. We had agreed with Lisaera, for example, that thieves would be handled case-by-case.

And for robbing a shop, I'm glad Magnagora will punish him. It is only logical.. and Voron claims he is ready. We shall see.

As far as I've seen, more people look for IC reasons to justify cheap and lame actions than to justify forbidding cheap and lame actions. I'm not pointing fingers because it happens on all sides. I just don't like it, and I'm sad to see it happen so often in my own guild

Well I suppose I can understand Narsrim in a way because he believes grace to be ooc, while I take it as an IC item. But it also closes doors for Voron by not condeming him within your guild. I mean nothing right now will stop people from killing him untill he leaves, because most people will have no OOC pitty for such actions. I would infact be quite interrested to see howmany Serens would come to Voron's aid when he gets jumped.

First and foremost, I have said (please read posts instead of just making stuff up) that I feel the Grace of the Gods is very much an IC blessing. It is given out by the Gods/Fates as a way to protect the weak. As such, it is only logical that the Gods would punish someone who violates the faith of their blessings.

I consider Grace to be akin to a Divine Favour (which is also IC) - a gift from the Gods. As such, there is no reason the Moondancers should attempt to dictate if it was or was not "abused." It would be like me telling Hajamin "Why did you favor Aesyra again? I'm going to go punish her because I think she's just using it to do Y-thing I disagree with." I can assure you that I'd be impaled in moments.

And finally, I have stated about 50 times in this thread (again, if you are going to make comments about my opinions, have the decency to to read what I wrote), the Moondancers have philosophical and IC issues to consider. Primarily, we don't encourage people to steal, we don't endorse it, but we do look upon it as a necessary evil in some situations. As such, Voron violated no guild law so we cannot punish him for something that he did not know (or so he claims) was wrong. We are working to readdress if there needs to be laws in place, what sorts of punishments would happen, etc. But we aren't going to go post ex facto on him.

that was accually supposed to be abuse of grace, not just grace.

Moonbeam wasn't abused on its own, no.. but the matter still needs to be fixed, and moonbeam is the only skill in Lusternia allowing someone to enter a stockroom.. I only see a couple solutions:

* Make moonbeam an aggressive act, so you have to declare and cannot be graced, just like Via for example.

* Remove divine grace from the game.

* Make it impossible to enter a stockroom other than walking.

I vote for just removing Grace. If we are going to fix one problem with it, we might as well address others. People abuse it to get past people, demesne break points, influence, etc.