There's not a lot to do in the Phantom Zone, Viravain, nothing to take over really, save for maybe kicking General Zod's butt.

More seriously, I wonder where this will end up. It will be fun.

It makes sense. The seals and the Vernals were the ones to overwhelm the Soulless while the Elder gods struggled and splintered, ran, or died for the most part. As such

Vernals > Soulless
Soulless > Elders
Vernals > Elders?

It's a possibility. In the least, if the seals can keep back the strongest of the Soulless then one should have the power to push around an Elder. I won't assume She's peratrapped (or even semi-trapped: She might like it wherever She is) though.

A pity my character doesn't keep tabs on the Divine or Glomdoring much: otherwise, I'd join in.

I think the idea was that there were a handful Elders and lots and lots and lots of Vernals.

Think of it as a swarm of mosquitoes attacking the soulless

not to mention Vernals had no escape and fought like rats in a corner. While the Elder gods knew a way to hide.

Maybe the seals are now using Kethuru's power, I mean I never saw a seal with a mind of it's own before

It will be interresting to see this event unravel.

peratrapped? I think you mean perma?

And, the Elders actually DESTROYED Soulless. The Vernals could only trap. However, Avechna was powerful enough to succeed in what the Elders couldn't - although, if the Elders mimiced the process, I'm sure they could create a more powerful entity.

I imagine what the Nine did was similiar in nature to what Dynara and Magnora did. Avechna's kind of like Estarra's grand son. Or something.

Maybe Her insistence on ignoring the Taint made Kethuru decide to show Her that He does indeed exist, even if trapped?

After all, He wasn't destroyed, just retrapped into a seal for safety

Isn't Avencha and other areas of power within the Basin sort of like a Vernal gods Demense?

I think Vernals are the strongest when it comes to areas of power, but Elders are stronger overall.

This makes me wonder if a Vernal God like Kiakoda was capable of taking on an Elder God. At least, in the forests. Probably. Kiakoda was a beast, though.

I thought the only reason the vernal gods didnt destroy the soulles was becouse they had become an integral part of Lusternia nad destroying them would destroy the world . . .
That was my take on it anyway.

Where are that they are an intergral part of Lusternia? I mean, I can understand that by Estarra - but that has only been said about Her versus Kethuru.

If that was true, then if the Elder Gods killed Soulless that would mean it would destroy Lusternia too - and we all know Elder Gods killed Soulless, look at Lacostian.

But you don't know that they were actually destroyed, perhaps they were just torn apart a la Elcyrion or incapacitated so they were devoured by other Soulless, etc.

(This doesn't have any bearing on the argument of whether or not Soulless are all integral, just pointing out you can't assume much about the Elder Wars.)

Ok, reread the story on the Vernal Wars. Essentualy, those gods had about as much luck defeating the Soulless as the Elders. By how it sounds, it was a matter of numbers: Hundreds of Vernals rising up, with the Counsel of 9 spearheading the operation.

Avechna seems less a demesne and more of a blending of powers. They all merged their strength to form one superfighter

(I'm getting images of Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. OH GOD NO!

Tzaraziko: Kethuru's too powerful! We must stop him before he destroys the world!

D'varsha: It's morphing time!

(music) Go Go Power Vernals! Mighty Morphin Vernal Goooods!

Avechna, for Great Justice

.....yes, I just realized I could've saved us all much suffering by using Voltron instead but oh well. SUFFER!!! )


In any case, the Vernals are definatly weaker than the Elders, but their combined power is greater than the sum of their parts. Thus

Soulless > Elders
Soulless > Vernals
Avechna > Soulless and probably Elders. Also > Kethuru though bearly

Lastly, I think the Soulless can't be destroyed by anyone without Bad Things happening, but they can be held back so long as Ascended Gods are created. I will note that if the ONLY thing stopping Estarra from killing Kethuru is Mass Destruction then Estarra >> Everyone.

Oh, and I bet everyone STILL has that song in their heads. I know I do

I thought Lisaera said once on CT that Vernal Gods were not nearly as powerful as Elder Gods. However, there were just a lot of them.

Actually, I think this is more correct that actually destroying them. I think Lacostian said that's what He did to the Soulless that killed Elcyrion - torn apart, and probably eaten by other Soulless.

So, in theory, fighting Soulless is like fighting Terrorism. You honestly can't do it - for in the process of doing it, others will simply become stronger and more powerful.

Hajamin said that on his aspirants clan aether.

Vernal gods couldn't be as strong, or else how could players ever raise em?

Where are you getting this information?

Gods are gods. Although newly raised Vernal Gods were, of course, little stronger than your average demigod, the Nine were the cream of the crop. The Nine were each most likely as strong or stronger than the strongest Elder God.

For that matter, there were certainly Soulless Gods who were "weak" compared to many Elder Gods. But if you are talking about Kethuru, he was stronger and held more power than any single Elder God or Vernal God could conceive.

I'm curious - we know the Soulless Gods absorbed the power of Elders and Vernals. Or, more correctly, their essence - and it made them stronger. Thus Kethuru's power. He absorbed more than any other.

Did, or maybe more appropriately could, an Elder God absorb the esence and power of a Soulless God?

Oooh maybe that's what Viravain did and that's why she got locked up.

Don't bring that up IG. All we need are Divine trying to get Kethuru out to try to absorb him.