Since i sort of read to the second page, looked at it, and went nah, cant be bothered reading it all, i've decided not to actually post about the content and actually post a semi-decent way (well i think it's decent) to determine if it's griefing or not.

Wouldn't it be actually half decent if we had a court case where both parties, the victim and the offender both presented their sides of the story/relevant information in a court style fashion, to the Norns, the judge, with a -neutral- god standing as jury. This would ensure both sides of the story are told, someone not biast towards either organization would decided the verdict, though if it is only going to be the Norns, the god as the jury can be removed. All of this would be done in the Hall of Justice, with the room peaced so no one can attack or anything.

To actually take someone to trial, you would have to file an issue, or a special type of issue against them, and then i guess the Norns would either accept the victim's claims as legiment and decide to make a case out of it, or not.

I think that'd be cool, but it sounds very very time consuming.

Well not really, if it's just each side says, so and so did this, then that and killed this person, and they're a griefer rah rah rah, and the other person says, what you talking about, i killed that person because they killed my sons wifes, mothers, brothers, daughter, and then the Norns can decide either way.

I think a system like that would help greatly with the real griefers, those the players cannot do anything about. That people who create and recreate and keep annoying the same people over and over without steping over the line, this kind of things... Stealing while graced, etc...

Regarding killing and griefing, I am sure Nasrim and Munsia are nobodies in griefing compared to some older players who are no longer around, like Brona or Yrael, wich finally were controlled thanks to player intervention.

... i highly doubt Yrael is a griefer, i mean what, he stole, most of the stuff was giving back discreetly anyway, and once people actually though, wow, he could steal from me, it became basically impossible to anyone who had decent triggers, and Narsrim and Munsia are way worse then Yrael or Brona, mainly since they've been active longer.

It depends on what you count as "griefing". I'm guilty of raiding constantly, I admit. I have taken it too far; however, most of the people who died in these cases died because they opted to become involved. For example, I raid Angkrag for dwarves. X-people show up to defend. X-people die.

On the flip side, the people that were hit by Yrael didn't opt to be robbed. Most of them were noncombatants who were not involved in raiding period. Furthermore, Viravain is on the record for stating (and I think everyone agrees) that stealing has larger impact (far larger) than death (specifically if the target conglutinates). Believe it or not, some people buy credits to sell them for gold to run a shop. They lost out big when there massive stockroom was just wiped out. A conglutination death on the other hand is nothing like that.

And on the note of Brona, he did post on public news that he would be targeting novice/newbie at one point. I have never (to my knowledge) slain a novice/newbie in cold blood (with the exception of this one guy on Astral who has like 2-3 trans skills... and I just didn't know he was technically a "novice").

Narsrim, the people that conglutinated at their nexus just to be beckoned north and be killed again after rejecting grace, didn't opt for it either.

Or the ones that were ordered to chase you out, just to be lured out of Glomdoring and forced to pray without you even gaining suspect, didn't opt for it either..

Or the Nihilists barely out of novicehood you kill at Nil after foresting the whole plane, and wisp into your Munsrim trap, didn't opt for it either.

Or your casual strolls through Glomdoring for whatever, kill anyone that attack you and claim it's their own fault for attacking you! You can't help that..

Etc..

I think it's very clear to everyone, that if there is any definition of griefing whatsoever, you made it a standard. Now Magnagora isn't innocent of it either, but no one ever reached your level. I think if this rule is implemented discretely, it can be a great relief to many people, especially Glomdoring. If everyone would just stuck to a general form of decency, it wouldn't even be needed, but I do believe.. that it is needed.

Edit, I don't really include Munsia in this, since she wouldn't have done any of it without you.

1. I wasn't around when Amaru was beckoning people. How am I griefing in a case where I wasn't here?

2. Actually, there was some opting to chase me else they wouldn't have flowed out of Glomdoring. At which point they did Flow out of Glomdoring, they could have flowed right back inside to safety; however, they thought 5 of them could take me down. Wrong. Nothing stopped them from immediately retreating... in fact, I had to tumble out a couple times because I did almost die.

3. Who was this person?

4. And most of the time I get attacked in Glomdoring, I'm after spiders for the Tosha Monastery Quest. It isn't my fault there is no other place to get them.

Exactly why you should go with my court idea, it'd be a fair trial with both sides presenting their story, and judged fairly.

See? Thank you for solidifying my point, Narsrim.. less work for me.

Yes, Thorgal: You point is proven that I was griefing HARDCORE when someone was beckoning people when I WAS NOT HERE.

Less fighting more ideas or feedback on ideas, or stuff! Keep the pointless arguements to the Idiots.

Thorgal just likes to talk smack. I especially love that I'm responsible for the actions of other players now when I'm not involved. Forgive me for being off topic when he throws up my name with accusations.

And really, people who are abusing such "cheap tactics" couldn't be reported to their elders and deal with?

That, or you just start doing the same to them and wait for an answer.

Sadly, due to the level of competition in this game, we're all griefers. Including me for smiling when a novice magnagoran is being slayn by a rockeater in front of my nose when I could be helping said novice by killing the rockeater, considering he's a new person to the game (sadly, my char IG won't help a Magnagoran even if he's small and defenseless).

People who complain about Nasrim and Munsia in the forums tend to be elder players who should be knowing what they're doing. Also, most of their tactics are promptly adopted by other factions under the idea that "if they're doing it, I can".

I'm sure, and the rest are all lies too huh.

Again, we do need this rule, it shouldn't be anything drastic, but when people like him are pulling their crap again, someone stepping in and saying: "Dude, lay off.".. goes a long way in relief for a lot of people. They don't need to be gravely punished or anything, but just given a reminder that this behaviour cannot be endlessly tolerated.

This is a typical response from you after you make an accusation that is untrue. When Amaru or whoever was beckoning people in Glomdoring, I wasn't present - I wasn't even in-game.

If you are going to push false accusations, at the very least you could "back them up" with something better than "I'm sure." Quite honestly, I'm going to infer you were not present at the time and heard the "beckoning story" thirdhand because you don't even know who was really there.

Gods, what the hell does it matter if you weren't present in one of the many 'crimes' committed.. (even though you did do it, just not the last time it happened).. you did everything else and a lot more than I even mentioned. Remember the early days of Glomdoring? I'm sure you do!

The point is that no one has ever griefed as many players as you, but you're not the only one, and against that should stand an incentive, so a God can step in to tell you to back the hell off.

On their own judgement.

My point is simply that you like to throw around these stories about "what I do" when 90% of the time, you weren't present; you don't know the context of the situation; etc.

As I told you before, you are the MASTER of extrapolation. You hear about something that has trickled down from two to three people and then come to forums and cast blame as if you were present and a victim. That's what matters.

You accused me of robbing Telira and keeping her stuff, for example. While yes, I did force Telira to give me her pack, I did so because she was urging me to kill her so she could karma curse me. After she promised to not be a brat about karma, I returned all of her belongings and mailed her new vials (I made her pour phlegmatic so I could stick aeon) to make up for what she lost. You attempted to manipulate this in another thread where she ended up robbed blind, all of her vials were empty, etc.

I'm tired of the drama. If you are going to accuse me of griefing at least get the damn facts straight. I imagine the reason you do not as the situation usually isn't as amazing/out-of-this-world when you share such things as the context and what actually happened.

If you're going to just yell at each other and throw personal insults in a thread that isn't about Nasrim/Thorgal hate history, can you do it on PMs? Or open your own thread in idiots and we'll go reading it for updates. Sometimes you sound like an old married couple argueing and argueing

Has Estarra said in any moment this was a thread to acuse the "Griefer of the Year"? Or was it just to give her feedback on the need of an anti-grief system?