We're goin have a revolution..

by Daganev

Back to The Real World.

Unknown2005-11-08 21:31:07
I like religion when it inspires people to do good things... like give to charity, or save a life, or something.

I dislike religion when it starts wars and kills people. smile.gif
Narsrim2005-11-08 21:41:14
QUOTE(Etanru @ Nov 8 2005, 05:31 PM)
I like religion when it inspires people to do good things... like give to charity, or save a life, or something.

I dislike religion when it starts wars and kills people. smile.gif
219912



I dislike religion when it inspires people to act in a manner such they try to justify themselves. I despise when people give to charity because they think it makes them a "good" person because it is a "good thing" to do.
Cwin2005-11-09 00:12:21
To put some defense on Christianity as a whole, I will mark that "God told me to" doesn't nessisarily mean that God actualy told them to.

SHOULD God be telling Bush to do things? According to the religion, yes.

Does Bush saying that God told him to mean that it was a religious decision? Nope. I could go off and blow up a few homeless shelters right now and say God told me to, even believe it myself, and yet it wasn't God saying so in the least. People lie. People look for rationality for things they shouldn't do. Also, according to the religion, 'other' forces make wonderful God impressions.

Of course, God could've told Bush to invade Iraq: he's not peaceful in the least, after all. However, if you believe every Christian who claims to be following God then I have a Fountain of Youth to sell you. I promise it's legit: God told me so.
Sylphas2005-11-09 00:31:01
QUOTE(Cwin @ Nov 8 2005, 08:12 PM)
I could go off and blow up a few homeless shelters right now and say God told me to, even believe it myself, and yet it wasn't God saying so in the least.  People lie.  People look for rationality for things they shouldn't do.  Also, according to the religion, 'other' forces make wonderful God impressions.
220034



This is the part I dislike about Christianity. I can buy the whole "God/something told me to this," but if people don't like it, it was something pretending, and if they do, it was God. It seems awfully presumptious and a nice loophole.

"Oh, God told you to split from the Catholic church? No, that was just a demon."
"God told us to crusade against the Muslims? That's obviously Him."

Pet peeve. I hear it a lot with us pagans, where anyone claiming the God or Goddess did anything is automatically told that is was a demon or the devil or something, even if it was "they told me to start a shelter for war orphans".
Daganev2005-11-09 01:03:22
What you say is a "loophole" is what others call logical realities.

I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that every monothiestic religion says that prophecy no longer exists.
Unknown2005-11-09 01:17:46
Erion, the 'shot hear 'round the world' was not the Boston Massacre, it was the first shot fired by revolutionary forces during the war, made as the british marched to retake a weapons stockpile in Luxumbourge.
Singollo2005-11-09 04:03:28
Once again I'm amazed at the resident conservative's inability to process logic and historical causation.

Here is the current state of France: Towelheads
Daganev2005-11-09 04:29:55
Huh?

Towelheads can't equal French Honkees, untill towelheards ARE French Honkees. Seperate but equal is not equal.

In America its like this..

AsiansBlackWhitesLatins
So I'm not quite sure what your saying.
Nyla2005-11-09 05:40:10
QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith @ Nov 8 2005, 02:06 PM)
I fear we'll have to blame my american ignorance - I know, not everything works elsewhere as it does here - but who's fault is it they do not go to schools, they don't study and become "real" citizens, as you say?  I don't think the gov't has to hold ANYONE'S hand - if they have the will and desire to rise above their current social station, they need to get off their ass and do it.  Bitching and moaning to the point where you're setting cars on fire only shows me that they are no better than the people whom are against them for no reason other than the fact they are "second class citizens", as well as whatever racial terms the French can drag up.  Why?  Because they're only proving their point.
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Its not American ignorance at all. You seem to have forgotten this same thing happened in the United States. White people claimed it was okay to discriminate on the basis of seperate but equal, but seperate but equal is anything but equal.

On another note, affirmitive action does not give jobs to those less qualified. As an example.. if both you and I apply to Langston University (A predominately black college) and both of us have somewhat equal scores and such, you get preference over me because you are the under-represented minority at that school. Or if You and Viravain apply to an all womans college with the same scores, you are given preference over Viravain because you are the under represented minority again.
Unknown2005-11-09 09:04:31
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 8 2005, 02:29 PM)
And I hate godless dictatorships. They kill more people. tongue.gif
219713



I believe Hitler was christian, or some deviation thereof. I can't think of a man more responsible for the death of others, short of the Crusades. And if you attempt to tell me any of the leaders there were godless, I do believe I'd call you an idiot.
Unknown2005-11-09 09:13:07
QUOTE(nyla @ Nov 9 2005, 12:40 AM)
On another note, affirmitive action does not give jobs to those less qualified.  As an example.. if both you and I apply to Langston University (A predominately black college) and both of us have somewhat equal scores and such, you get preference over me because you are the under-represented minority at that school. Or if You and Viravain apply to an all womans college with the same scores,  you are given preference over Viravain because you are the under represented minority again.
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I never said they were the same thing. Apologies if you felt that way - I know full well they are two different things, and exactly the situations involved in both.
Iridiel2005-11-09 09:21:43
Muslims and jews aren't discriminated just because. I am sure rich muslims and rich jews aren't on the riots. It's more about poverty than religion, but casually all those inmigrants that come from muslim countries _conquered_ by france and slammed into unhealthy suburbs tend to be muslim. I guess if France had conquered Israel, they would be jews.

And YoLF, we live in a system that tries to get the more disfavoured people back up on their feet. This way we don't have the 40% population under poverty margins that you can find in certain cities of your country, but that also makes people very wary of their rights being kept. And of course, it leds to abuse, when some people don't do anything and think that "government will provide".

Anyway, problem is, if for example your rights as french citizen include the right for a basical education, and you see that in your area there's not a single school, while in other areas are school, and you see that you're not getting a work because well, people dislike people with a better natural tan than them, and police tends to be repressive with poor people from suburbs, when something happens that acts as spark (like this two guys electrocutated) then situation explodes. If you pay your taxes (yes, we're more heavily taxed than americans) to have a decent minimun sanitary system (that won't leave anymore to die on the door to a hospital) you expect to have at least a public medical center near you. That kind of things create discomfort.

Also, integration or no integration, white european people keep complaining that muslims (never heard problems with jews) are conquering them and diluting the "Spirit and culture of France" forgetting that those muslims are so french as they are. But racism is always there, and it's a fact that there're movements wich spread easy to believe lies and demagogia about it. Of course, you tell them they're frenchs, then put them all together on a suburb and forbid expression of their beliefs (yeah, you cannot use a handkerchief on your head at school, school is laic and the handkerchief is a religious symbol and not a cultural one) then extremism is brewed.

Probably, if in one of those cities with a big minority of poor south-american people there was a case that was considered police torture, you could have a revolution there.

Regarding the real facts, it seems the two kids "thought" the police was after them, so they started running, so the police though they were doing something and ran after them, and the kids got into an electricity area and were killed. This has been transformed by certain people into "police chased innocents guys to death and thrown them into an electricity central" wich is was is causing the riots.

Anyway, more later, I just got to work after spending 3h last night debating all of this with my parents and I should be doing something useful instead smile.gif
Manjanaia2005-11-09 16:22:55
QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith @ Nov 9 2005, 09:04 AM)
I believe Hitler was christian, or some deviation thereof.  I can't think of a man more responsible for the death of others, short of the Crusades.  And if you attempt to tell me any of the leaders there were godless, I do believe I'd call you an idiot.
220301



Hitler himself maybe but religion was certainly not a Nazi policy. If he was willing to have it stamped out then I doubt it affected his dictating.

EDIT: Extra sentence added, change of wording.
Narsrim2005-11-09 16:23:51
QUOTE(Manjanaia @ Nov 9 2005, 12:22 PM)
Hitler himself maybe but religion was certainly not a Nazi policy.
220409



Is that relevant to the statement? Daganev said that non-religious dictators are worse. YoLF pointed out that Hilter had a religion, christianity.
Manjanaia2005-11-09 16:25:48
My point being that he did not have a religion in any active form, in the sense that it made no effect on his style of dictatorship, therefore he may as well be Godless.
Narsrim2005-11-09 16:41:43
QUOTE(Manjanaia @ Nov 9 2005, 12:25 PM)
My point being that he did not have a religion in any active form, in the sense that it made no effect on his style of dictatorship, therefore he may as well be Godless.
220411



That's false.

Bill Clinton made no major attempt to style his presidency to the Christian Religion (at least that I am aware of), however, he is a practicing Christian. You nor anyone other person really has the authority to decide who is or who is not a Christian regardless if the person in question may scar the "good name" of said religion.

Hilter was raised Christian. He was noted as attending church and learning the lore and history of the religion. He claimed to be a Christian... so that means *gasp* he was a Christian. Regardless of whether or not he was a "good" christian is really up the the christian god to decide not someone else.
Daganev2005-11-09 18:24:57
A few comments.

Firstly, there are conflicting reports as to if Hitler was a christain or a believer in Nordic paganism. Publicly, Hitler used many biblical refrences to rally up the people. Who happened to be strongly Christain. However, all reports of his private life, and private conversations show him speaking badly of religion. There is no question that he used the power of the Pope to gain influence in Germany. However, many of his Aryan ideas and images he used as well as the operas and songs he litsened to, all glorified Nordic mythology... Atleast thats what I was told in my music classes.

Secondly, Stallin and Polpot killed many times as many people as Hitler did. Hitler killed 11 million, Stallin killed 20 Million. I'll have to go look up how many Polpot killed.


Thirdly, there are no Jews involved in the riots, rich or poor. A few years ago, muslim teens burned down synagoguges. Since then there has been a mass migration out of France from Jews, many ironically moving to Germany which is currently the fastest growing Jewish population. (Take that Nazis!)


Edit: I just heard on the news that the richer Muslim communities are actively trying to seperate themsevels from these riots.
Narsrim2005-11-09 18:52:21
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 9 2005, 02:24 PM)
A few comments.

Firstly, there are conflicting reports as to if Hitler was a christain or a believer in Nordic paganism.  Publicly, Hitler used many biblical refrences to rally up the people. Who happened to be strongly Christain. However, all reports of his private life, and private conversations show him speaking badly of religion.  There is no question that he used the power of the Pope to gain influence in Germany.  However, many of his Aryan ideas and images he used as well as the operas and songs he litsened to, all glorified Nordic mythology...  Atleast thats what I was told in my music classes.

Secondly, Stallin and Polpot killed many times as many people as Hitler did.  Hitler killed 11 million, Stallin killed 20 Million. I'll have to go look up how many Polpot killed.

Thirdly, there are no Jews involved in the riots, rich or poor. A few years ago, muslim teens burned down synagoguges. Since then there has been a mass migration out of France from Jews, many ironically moving to Germany which is currently the fastest growing Jewish population.  (Take that Nazis!)
220460



Was your music teacher a Nordic pagan? I think it silly to conclude that Hilter was a believer in Nordic paganism because he listened to Nordic music. If that's the case, I'm an atheist because I listen to Bad Religion... but alas, that's a misplaced concept.

Second, the number of people "killed" by Hilter and Stalin are very must in question. We know it was a lot, we know it was over 10 million, but really... that's about it. There is a lot of evidence that concludes far more than 11 million people were slain by Hilter... and a lot that concludes that far less than 20 million were slain by Stalin. Therefore, the argument is a bit moot. The numbers "11 million" and "20 million" are generally accepted, but there is some doubt in the accuracy.
Daganev2005-11-09 19:10:45
Flight of the Valkyries was played as Jews were taken into the gas chambers on the way to thier deaths. And if it wasn't that song, it was some Wagner Opera, who's expressed meaning was something of being pro-pagan and anti-christain.

Nordic mythology places white people at the head of creation and looks down upon other peooples, with a basic premise of burning the bodies of the dead.

If the only thing you listened to was Bad Religion, then it can be assumed that you adhere the the same beliefs as them. If you listen to Bad Religion along with many other bands then you can't really make that conclusion.
Narsrim2005-11-09 19:31:58
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 9 2005, 03:10 PM)
Flight of the Valkyries was played as Jews were taken into the gas chambers on the way to thier deaths.  And if it wasn't that song, it was some Wagner Opera, who's expressed meaning was something of being pro-pagan and anti-christain.

Nordic mythology places white people at the head of creation and looks down upon other peooples, with a basic premise of burning the bodies of the dead.

If the only thing you listened to was Bad Religion, then it can be assumed that you adhere the the same beliefs as them. If you listen to Bad Religion along with  many other bands then you can't really make that conclusion.
220483



Ok, let's look at what Hilter did Christian-wise:

QUOTE
a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

B) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school.  (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.”  His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest.  Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals.  As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”  -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy.  In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican.  Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church.  This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism is hostile to religion is a lie.”  Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

g) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church.  The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education.  This photo (attached below) depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin.  It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday.  The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20th, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.”  (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law.  He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home.  Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity.  It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.”  –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.”  -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism


I think that's a bit more excessive than some silly music.