Reading the thread about the pk change, made me think about Champion rescues. If a guildmate is in trouble and being attacked or killed, they can call on their guild champion to rescue them and fight off the attacker, if the attacker dies then the Champion gets suspect, with the change that would make it significantly tougher for a champion to do the latter portion of that.

Now I had just thought of an idea that might be good for this case, and after talking to a few people who think it would be a good idea as well, a 'declare by proxy' as one called it. Essentially if random guildmate a is being jumped and the champion rescues them, and kills the attacker they get suspect. So I was pondering the idea where if champions use 'rescue' on someone, they get their declares, for instance, Shamarah attacks Caighan out of the blue, Shamarah had declared Caighan to kill him, when I 'rescue caighan' and switch places, I get caighan's declares as if Shamarah had declared on me, so I can kill him without getting suspect. But if Caighan had declared Shamarah to kill him, then yelled for help and I went to 'rescue caighan' I'd get caighan's declare on Sharamah, so if I killed him I'd get suspect.

The main problem I would see with this is auto-declares, or declares in hostile territory, which I would ponder an example such as this: Caighan is jumped on the highway by Shamarah, Shamarah declared him to kill, since its neutral territory it'd work as above, same for friendly areas (villages). However if Caighan is in territory he is enemied to, such as Rockholm, and he is declared either automatically when attacked or manually, it would be the same as if I'd declared those attacking him if I went to rescue him and thus would get suspect on me if I killed them (course this part might not be necessary since I believe Champion rescues were stopped from working in hostile territory to begin with)

Personally in my opinion that would not punish champions for rescuing and protecting their guildmates, while preserving the spirit of champion rescues as well

that sounds like a pretty good idea actually...go for it

Yea, good idea.

I'm not a champion, but I'm not too fond of this idea.

For example... um... Nyla raids Stewartsville, then escapes and I declare and 'jump' him in neutral territory moments later for it. Let's also assume in this hypothetical situation I feel I stand a good chance of killing him ().

Now, under this change, Citera is able to switch places with Nyla, and obviously take me out easily with no Avenger protection. From the point of view of the aggressor, I would find this quite disheartening.


In essence, I think it is important to disassociate the rescue ability with the decision to exact vengeance for attacking a guildmate. The two are separate actions. You rescue your guildmate, then decide whether you are going to attack yourself.

The actual rescue ability will not be affected by these pk changes.

Well, the champion is there to save guildmates that are weaker than him (and thus, save Nyla from being slaughtered by you, as by RP she's right and you'r e wrong (in the eyes of his guild champion).
Solution: Make sure champion is busy, not around when you plan on making nylacake.

My point is that saving a guildmate is accomplished the moment they are warped outta there.

It doesn't have anything to do with Avenger status.

Edit: As you say, RP-wise we're both right, and the champion certainly has every RP justification to attack and kill the aggressor... but if they do, they can do so with Avenger watching on.

Actually you have good point too.
Your guildmate is safe so its up to you if you want to kill agressor, if he attacks you first you are free to kill him. But if you attack as first you have to know consequences of your actions.

And i have a lot more creative use for help rescue. Just ask Paladins, heh.

And many groups use rp as excuse for everything, be it Glomdoring being attacked constantly by Serenwilde for past reasons such as them having to kill the fae by game mechanics, or whatnot, and whenever questioned simply state 'its their rp to do so' or its their rp for the rage/terror covens consistently being used against enemies for being enemies. But it is the champions job (in my opinion at least) to protect their own, if the person wasn't declared to be killed the champion would be as it is now, if they were (bar the hostile territory portion) then they would, 'by their rp' be defending their guildmates and taking out those that would be trying to kill their guildmates. To use your Nyla example, if he had ran out and was rescued, the champion would still get suspect for killing you, unless you waited so long that the Nyla's transferred declare from enemy territory had ran out, in which case you'd get suspect on you for killing Nyla anyhow.

Its just my personal opinion that this would hold to the spirit of the champion rescue and would also be perfectly by their 'rp' and be a positive change for every guild. Whereas as it is now they can't rescue and defend more then 5 guildmates a real month without being avengered, assuming they don't do anything else that would cause suspect on them

Well, provided the champion does a good job on killing people attacking his/her guildmates that could act as a deterrant for future killers (hey guys, we better stop killing moondancers or their champion is going to make soup of us if he caughs us).
Also, seeing the people we have in the game, an overactive champion could create such hate for the guild that when she's not around people of that guild aren't able to leave safe grounds without being killed...

Well, they can't kill the attacker in vengeance more than 5 times a month.

They can rescue as often as they like.

Hence the rescue and defend, people commonly go around killing people after things, such as your Nyla example, and thats your rp. It is a Champions rp to rescue and 'defend' their guildmates. Personally it makes more sense to me, rp wise or otherwise for champions to be able to rescue and defend their guildmates, those weaker then them as is their job without being punished for doing so, and is in the spirit of the champion. *shrug* but that is just my opinion

But you're no longer 'defending' if the person isn't there.

Actually, when Nyla raids Stewartsville, he automatically declares himself to all of Serenwilde, after the denizen change. And you can chase and kill him regardless.. or did I miss something?

You are defending the person that was being killed by killing the one trying to kill them, which if they're declared against the champion due to something like this they inititiated the attempt to kill the guildmate outside of friendly (to them) territory, or jumping per se. It depends on your definition of defending, thats mine personally

Well, I was thinking of the case where the declaration expires before I catch him.

Actually, now that I think about it, doesn't DEFEND sort of solve this problem regardless?

#ALIAS rescue {#send "rescue %1";tell %1 Ally me RIGHT NOW, damn it!}

Hmm, need to look into that, if thats the case then it wouldn't be too hard to think of the idea that rescue basically does that defend on the person if they're a guildmate when its done?

Edit: Thinking some more on that, how exactly does 'defend' work? (completely ignoring rescue at the moment), if you walk in on Caighan being attacked by Shamarah and he has you allied, and you 'defend' him then help him kill Shamarah (assuming Shamarah had declared Caighan to begin with) would it be similar to the middle section on my first post, where neither you nor Caighan would get suspect on you because Shamarah had initiated the hostilities?

Right. (to the edit)

This is a ridiculous idea. Why can't the champion just defend the person in question? Then if he kills the person, no suspect. I mean everyone should have the guild champion allied. Failure to do so is your fault. As for the champion, he or she will know because he won't be able to hit the person otherwise unless he or she declares.

I already despise how people are starting to use champion rescue offensively. We don't need anything else to make this easier to manipulate.