Been there, done that.

This could be true, except for the fact That Christianity is so mixed through many laws that it invariably becomes somewhat religious no matter how hard you try to shut your eyes and pretend otherwise.

Note that some sects of Christianity perform gay marriages too.

So you enjoy sex with another man then?

Avaer, I could care less if the official medical world believes that acupuncture is a valid form of treatment. Many people try, and like it.

The reason I brought up Living waters was not a question if people can change thier behavior (Ofcourse anybody can choose to change any behavior they wish) The question is if there exists people who choose to change thier behavior and are happy with the results. Such cases exist.

For every heterosexual couple who is married and happy, I can show you a heterosexual who is married and unhappy. For every gay person who refuses to marry someone of the opposite sex, I can show you a gay person who is happy to marry someone of the opposite sex. Again, these are not issues that are relevant to the discussion.

They're both no because that's what the law states, which is why I then said afterwards that they may also need to be looked at. I'm not arguing for or against those at this time.

And yes, this is a case of discriminating based on gender. If I want to marry Rhayni, I'm given blessings and accolades (well, except by her ), but if I want to marry you I can't. What is the *only* difference? One of you is male, and the other is female. That's it. There is nothing else. A same-sex couple can be every bit as productive as a heterosexual pairing, can get impregnated / adopt and parent children.

Of course, but in general there is a neo-conservative Christian movement in Western politics that draws on tradition and sentiments of religious undertones in forming decisions.

The offical medical world does not discount acupuncture at all. While not a common Western practice, alternative medicine is not rejected so much as it is just isn't practiced. There is a difference. If as a physician I wanted to incorporate acupuncture into a therapy, I could damn well do so. This is a poor example.

Furthermore, this isn't a question of individuals in society, but society as a whole.

Why on earth should I have to change to appease you or anyone else? Granted, me being gay mortally offends some people, but we all have to share this planet and at least try to get along.

Is it not possible that the state 'marriage' is simply a formal recognition of the religious one?

I do not see why you would believe that religious weddings and state weddings are entirely separate from one another.

Does it matter?

I could enjoy sex with a blowup doll.


Stop trying to make everything such an emotional issue. This conversation has nothing to with "who has a better lifestyle" or "who is a better person." Its a legal issue talking about laws and concepts.

I could just as easily be arguing that you can't fine a person who has not broken any rule. (something people like to say when they are trying to raise taxes without saying so)

My personal opinion is that they should be completely separated. The religious one ONLY has an affect in that religion. It gives no benefits from the state, no nothing, just the knowledge that those two people were married in that religion.

The state gives marriages equally between two consenting partners.

Religions can pick and choose who they will allow to marry, the state doesn't, everyone is happy (to one extent or another).

But why not? If your going to change what the law says, change it so that its 100% equal and does not descriminate against anyone.



As a freshmen in a publicly funded university, Rhayni can be roomates with 4 other girls, I can not, the only difference is that she is female and I'm male. Should that be changed as well?

Of course it is an emotional issue Daganev. I am being told that my wishes are not as important as someone elses issues. I am being told that in the eyes of the law, what I want to do is secondary and unworthy. Stop trying to degrade the issue into arguments of semantics and nuances, this is about discrimination. It really is that simple.

You are confusing sexual behaviour with sexual orientation.

Acupuncture is not discredited, either, it is simply not endorsed (at least, as far as I know there have been no warnings from medical organizations that acupuncture is both unethical and dangerous).


Really. Should we put that to a poll? I wonder how many gay or lesbian players here would be happy to be monogamously married to a person of the opposite sex.

Personally, I would find that disgusting and horrible. So that's one gay person who isn't happy to marry someone of the opposite sex. Let's see how many feel differently, shall we?

edit: And quidgyboo, I'm not saying anyone has to change anything. Some activities grant me special economic status for falling under specific categories, and some do not. For example, to get the economic benefits of a person with a disability, I have to have a disability. To get the economic benefits of a person who is married, I need to be married. There are hundreds and thousands of people who get married purely for economic benefit, and often times they never even meet in person.

Do I really have to go down the list?

Let's review:

You said earlier that gay marriage cannot be compared to interracial marriage because there is no difference between a white man versus a black man. However, you went on to say that there is a difference between a man and a woman. I disagree.

In our legal system, there is no devitation of rights on the basis of sex (not gender, gender is what you "feel like" not what you biologically are). A man and a woman are both considered equals. Thus, if the law is going to provide equivalent treatment to all people, it cannot recongize anymore difference between a black man (in the eyes of a law) versus a white man anymore than it can a man to a woman.

Furthermore, the examples you give are skewed. A philia (such as pedophilia) is considered a psychological abnormality. The law outlines specifics to take this into account. Furthermore, the target in this case (children) do not have the legal right to enter into a marriage. Thus, a pedophile cannot marry a child.

In the same light, there are laws that ban relatives from entering a marriage expliciting on the basis that the procreation of these individuals is harmful to the offspring and society as a whole.

Are you really equating two men or two women wanting to get married to someone who wants a tax benefit, someone in a wheelchair or someone who joins the military and pays no tax at all? I'm sorry, I don't see the connection. It is still discrimination based on sexual orientation no matter which way you want to bend the cards.

Ok let me restate this... IF a person is unhappy with the fact that they are naturally enclined to get married and creat a child of thier own, then they can go ahead and ask people how to change thier feelings on that issue. Why is it wrong for me to not be supportive of a few desires I have? If I had a strong emotional and almost physical desire to lie, or to steal things from other people I would be 100% supported in changing that behavior, why should this one be any different?

I am NOT.. repeat NOT saying that someone should feel compelled to get such behaviors changed by anyone besides themselves.

Sorry for using acupucture as an example... Just change Accupuncture to Prayer.


And a poll on these forums would mean nothing. It might be interesting however to see a poll of how many people on these forums are even happily married or in a happy relationship.

The reasons for this are likely administrative. As President of the Residence Halls at my University, I had a recent meeting over this. At least here, the reason that two people cannot become roommates of different sexes is because it would create too much difficulty trying to provide for everyone else who does not. They feel it is just easier to lump males with males and females with females because it appeases the greatest number of people. Our dorms except for one are all co-ed and there is nothing that stipulates a guy cannot sleep in the room with a female so long as both are up for it. As such, it has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with a general sense of privacy and accomodating the most people that can be accomodated.