Proposition 2: Texas Election 2005

by Rauros

Back to The Real World.

Unknown2005-11-13 04:03:47
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 04:02 AM)
Ok let me restate this... IF a person is unhappy with the fact that they are naturally enclined to get married and creat a child of thier own, then they can go ahead and ask people how to change thier feelings on that issue.  Why is it wrong for me to not be supportive of a few desires I have?  If I had a strong emotional and almost physical desire to lie, or to steal things from other people I would be 100% supported in changing that behavior, why should this one be any different?
222242


Uh, because it's not a crime? Nor a misbehaviour?
Narsrim2005-11-13 04:04:49
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 12:02 AM)
Sorry for using acupucture as an example... Just change Accupuncture to Prayer.

222242



That's a even worse example. There are a slew of recent studies that show that cancer patients who have someone (of any faith) praying for them are far more likely to recover than otherwise. The medical community cannot explain why, but it does not reject prayer as something that might help in situations like cancer where there may be very little that can be done otherwise.
Daganev2005-11-13 04:04:54
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 12 2005, 07:57 PM)
Let's review:

You said earlier that gay marriage cannot be compared to interracial marriage because there is no difference between a white man versus a black man. However, you went on to say that there is a difference between a man and a woman. I disagree.

In our legal system, there is no devitation of rights on the basis of sex (not gender, gender is what you "feel like" not what you biologically are). A man and a woman are both considered equals. Thus, if the law is going to provide equivalent treatment to all people, it cannot recongize anymore difference between a black man (in the eyes of a law) versus a white man anymore than it can a man to a woman.

Furthermore, the examples you give are skewed. A philia (such as pedophilia) is considered a psychological abnormality. The law outlines specifics to take this into account. Furthermore, the target in this case (children) do not have the legal right to enter into a marriage. Thus, a pedophile cannot marry a child.

In the same light, there are laws that ban relatives from entering a marriage expliciting on the basis that the procreation of these individuals is harmful to the offspring and society as a whole.
222240




Firstly, I would like to thank you for actually arguing relevant points and not bringing up emotional diversions.

If you are correct about there being no difference between a man and a woman, than I would like to see 100% support for allowing any many to enter any restroom and for it to be illegal to request single-sex dorms in a publicly funded university.
Narsrim2005-11-13 04:06:20
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 12:04 AM)
Firstly, I would like to thank you for actually arguing relevant points and not bringing up emotional diversions.

If you are correct about there being no difference between a man and a woman, than I would like to see 100% support for allowing any many to enter any restroom and for it to be illegal to request single-sex dorms in a publicly funded university.
222246



This is a matter of privacy, which supercedes in this case.
Unknown2005-11-13 04:06:29
Just because I'm not a lawyer, is there a law against a woman entering a male restroom?
Daganev2005-11-13 04:06:36
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 12 2005, 08:04 PM)
That's a even worse example. There are a slew of recent studies that show that cancer patients who have someone (of any faith) praying for them are far more likely to recover than otherwise. The medical community cannot explain why, but it does not reject prayer as something that might help in situations like cancer where there may be very little that can be done otherwise.
222245



If you told your doctor that you refuse medical treatment because you would rather someone pray for you, they would NOT support that. Those studies are about Prayer in -addition- to medical treatment, not in replacement of it.
Unknown2005-11-13 04:07:12
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 03:02 PM)
If I had a strong emotional and almost physical desire to lie, or to steal things from other people I would be 100% supported in changing that behavior, why should this one be any different?


Stealing, lying, killing, paedophilia, etc, are all actions that impact negatively on others in a real tangible way. About the only way you could argue that homosexuality has a negative impact and is therefore just the same is with a religious argument. It does not hurt anyone else, it does not damage the economy, it does not spread disease or sadness, it does not force a choice upon someone too young to make that choice.

QUOTE
I am NOT.. repeat NOT saying that someone should feel compelled to get such behaviors changed  by anyone besides themselves.


Yet you are saying it is tough luck if we 'decide' not to change.
Daganev2005-11-13 04:07:56
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 12 2005, 08:06 PM)
This is a matter of privacy, which supercedes in this case.
222247




A matter of privacy? Can I forbid a black person from walking into my restroom because he will be invading my privacy?
Narsrim2005-11-13 04:08:03
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 12:06 AM)
If you told your doctor that you refuse medical treatment because you would rather someone pray for you, they would NOT support that.  Those studies are about Prayer in -addition- to medical treatment, not in replacement of it.
222249



As a physician, I would be obligated to explain to that patient that they are not mutually exclusive and the best chance for the patient would be combination of medical treatment in combination with faith/religious "theraphy" too.
Narsrim2005-11-13 04:09:28
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 12:07 AM)
A matter of privacy?  Can I forbid a black person from walking into my restroom because he will be invading my privacy?
222251



In this case, no because what you consider "privacy" is not what the laws considers "privacy."
Unknown2005-11-13 04:11:37
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 13 2005, 03:04 PM)
That's a even worse example. There are a slew of recent studies that show that cancer patients who have someone (of any faith) praying for them are far more likely to recover than otherwise. The medical community cannot explain why, but it does not reject prayer as something that might help in situations like cancer where there may be very little that can be done otherwise.
222245



Really? Hmm I've read the opposite actually; that studies have shown when the patient does not know if someone is praying for them or not that there is no measureable difference in their recovery or survival rates. On the other hand, if the patient does think others are praying for them a placebo effect seems to kick in and it does actually have a statistical benefit.
Narsrim2005-11-13 04:13:16
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Nov 13 2005, 12:11 AM)
Really? Hmm I've read the opposite actually; that studies have shown when the patient does not know if someone is praying for them or not that there is no measureable difference in their recovery or survival rates. On the other hand, if the patient does think others are praying for them a placebo affect seems to kick in and it does actually have a statistical benefit.
222254



I'll have to find it, but my mom (who is a physician) was showing it to me in a journal recently. It was a double blind study in which the patients did not know someone was praying for them. It was conducted at various hospitals and such... and the conclusion was that people who had someone praying for them had a far better chance at recovery.
Daganev2005-11-13 04:13:32
QUOTE(Quidgyboo @ Nov 12 2005, 08:07 PM)
Stealing, lying, killing, paedophilia, etc, are all actions that impact negatively on others in a real tangible way. About the only way you could argue that homosexuality has a negative impact and is therefore just the same is with a religious argument. It does not hurt anyone else, it does not damage the economy, it does not spread disease or sadness, it does not force a choice upon someone too young to make that choice.
Yet you are saying it is tough luck if we 'decide' not to change.
222250




If the activitiy is wrong in the eyes of the patient who are you to force him to say it is ok? That would cause more damage than it would help.


Its also 'tough luck' if you decide taht you want to get veteran benefits by joining the cub scouts, or becoming a police officer in a dangerous city.

There are tons of economic status that people can not gain benefit from unless they make a change to the way they live, or choose to find loopholes in the system. Why should this one be any different?
Narsrim2005-11-13 04:15:21
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 12:13 AM)
If the activitiy is wrong in the eyes of the patient who are you to force him to say it is ok? 

That would cause more damage than it would help.
Its also 'tough luck' if you decide taht you want to get veteran benefits by joining the cub scouts, or becoming a police officer in a dangerous city.

There are tons of economic status that people can not gain benefit from unless they make a change to the way they live, or choose to find loopholes in the system.  Why should this one be any different?
222256



The acitivity, homosexuality, is not wrong in the eyes of the law. The Supreme Court made that clear against the state of Texas.

Furthermore, this isn't a case of "other people suffer so why shouldn't you have to suffer." You could argue against anything with that and it has absolutely no relevance to this issue.
Unknown2005-11-13 04:15:39
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 13 2005, 03:13 PM)
I'll have to find it, but my mom (who is a physician) was showing it to me in a journal recently. It was a double blind study in which the patients did not know someone was praying for them. It was conducted at various hospitals and such... and the conclusion was that people who had someone praying for them had a far better chance at recovery.
222255



I think I read the opposite in my psych textbook, or perhaps it was just some free notes we had to download for the course. I'm not sure, but if I come across it I will let you know.
Daganev2005-11-13 04:15:54
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 12 2005, 08:09 PM)
In this case, no because what you consider "privacy" is not what the laws considers "privacy."
222253




Well, then lets change the laws. You can't argue that its what the law says when your entire argument is that laws should be change, and anyone who doesn't want the change is a biggot.

If men and woman are 100% the same, then what is the issue of privacy? How is it diffrent if a woman walks into my restroom or a man does?
Unknown2005-11-13 04:16:13
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 04:13 AM)
If the activitiy is wrong in the eyes of the patient who are you to force him to say it is ok?  That would cause more damage than it would help.
222256


If someone is brought to a psychologist because they hate to eat (I forget the name of the disorder), are you saying that nothing should be done?
Daganev2005-11-13 04:19:12
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 12 2005, 08:15 PM)
The acitivity, homosexuality, is not wrong in the eyes of the law. The Supreme Court made that clear against the state of Texas.

Furthermore, this isn't a case of "other people suffer so why shouldn't you have to suffer." You could argue against anything with that and it has absolutely no relevance to this issue.
222257



Lieing is also not wrong in the eyes of the law. Only Purjury is. (Lieing under oath)


I never said if one group has to suffer so does everyone else. I said that if one group of people can be either happy or unhappy with a marriage, then another group of people who are also either happy or unhappy with a marriage are not inherently better or worse off.
Shiri2005-11-13 04:19:35
QUOTE(Avaer @ Nov 13 2005, 04:16 AM)
If someone is brought to a psychologist because they hate to eat (I forget the name of the disorder), are you saying that nothing should be done?
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If they say it's not a problem. I don't like the idea of 'cures' to 'disordrs' being forced like that.
Daganev2005-11-13 04:19:57
QUOTE(Avaer @ Nov 12 2005, 08:16 PM)
If someone is brought to a psychologist because they hate to eat (I forget the name of the disorder), are you saying that nothing should be done?
222260




Are you now saying that being straight is a disorder?