Unknown2005-11-10 21:55:24
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 04:48 PM)
What exactly are they fighting for the right for?
They are fighting for the right to what exactly? What law exists that says a Homosexual can not be married? Infact the old governer of New Jersey was gay AND legally married.
No rights are being deprived of anyone.
All I see are people shouting that the world should change so that they can feel better about themseleves.
They are fighting for the right to what exactly? What law exists that says a Homosexual can not be married? Infact the old governer of New Jersey was gay AND legally married.
No rights are being deprived of anyone.
All I see are people shouting that the world should change so that they can feel better about themseleves.
221046
Did you read the first post in this thread? I think it was there. Something like 19 states of already BANNED gay marriage. Texas makes 20.
Viravain2005-11-10 21:58:22
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 04:55 PM)
Personally, I know enough gay people who do not think Marriage should be changed to safely say that I know I'm not being "biggoted" or "small minded."
Not all gay people think the same way, so why this is ever brought up as an issue of being "biggoted" is way beyond my understanding.
(Well actually its not beyond my understanding, I just know it has little or nothing to actually do with Gays or Marriage, and more with political power)
Not all gay people think the same way, so why this is ever brought up as an issue of being "biggoted" is way beyond my understanding.
(Well actually its not beyond my understanding, I just know it has little or nothing to actually do with Gays or Marriage, and more with political power)
221051
Glad to know you're so popular. Obviously, the group you do know also takes into account every single person (who is homosexual) who does think marriage should be changed.
Daganev2005-11-10 22:00:07
Ok, this is really a basic legal concept.
Am I as a male allowed to enter a female showeroom? Are my rights being taken away?
Meh, ignore that.. Not having any law training I don't know how to word this so you'll understand but lets try.
IN the 1800s you would have two men, one named Daganev and one named Narsrim. Daganev is Black, Narsrim is white.
Narsrim can own any private property.
Daganev can not own any private property.
Thus one person has rights and the other person does not.
Now, in 1970 Daganev is Gay, Narsrim Is Not.
Daganev can marry any woman he likes.
Narsrim can marry any woman he likes.
Thus both people can get married, and nobody is being denied any rights.
Am I as a male allowed to enter a female showeroom? Are my rights being taken away?
Meh, ignore that.. Not having any law training I don't know how to word this so you'll understand but lets try.
IN the 1800s you would have two men, one named Daganev and one named Narsrim. Daganev is Black, Narsrim is white.
Narsrim can own any private property.
Daganev can not own any private property.
Thus one person has rights and the other person does not.
Now, in 1970 Daganev is Gay, Narsrim Is Not.
Daganev can marry any woman he likes.
Narsrim can marry any woman he likes.
Thus both people can get married, and nobody is being denied any rights.
Viravain2005-11-10 22:02:12
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 05:00 PM)
Daganev can marry any woman he likes.
Narsrim can marry any woman he likes.
 Thus both people can get married, and nobody is being denied any rights.
221057
Don't work so hard to make yourself look utterly foolish, Daganev.
Why would someone who is homosexual and likes men want to marry a woman? The point is, they wish to marry the person they love (who is of the same sex).
Daganev2005-11-10 22:02:25
QUOTE(Viravain @ Nov 10 2005, 01:58 PM)
Glad to know you're so popular. Obviously, the group you do know also takes into account every single person (who is homosexual) who does think marriage should be changed.
221055
My point is this is a legal issue, not a "biggot" issue.
My popularity has nothing to do with it.
I didn't say I'm not a biggot because I know gay people... thats just stupid.. I said I know enough gay people who agree with 20 states to know that this is an issue of politics and legalities, not an issue of descrimination.
Narsrim2005-11-10 22:03:59
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 05:48 PM)
No rights are being deprived of anyone.
221046
The following rights are gained upon marriage and thus not accessible by gay couples:
QUOTE
Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a
deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse’s behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a
deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse’s close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can’t force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining domestic violence protection orders.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
Daganev2005-11-10 22:04:25
QUOTE(Viravain @ Nov 10 2005, 02:02 PM)
Don't work so hard to make yourself look utterly foolish, Daganev.
Why would someone who is homosexual and likes men want to marry a woman? The point is, they wish to marry the person they love (who is of the same sex).
Why would someone who is homosexual and likes men want to marry a woman? The point is, they wish to marry the person they love (who is of the same sex).
221060
Really?
Lets look at the Govenor of New Jersey then, why did he get married?
Lets look at the thousands of people who get married soley to allow people to become U.S. Citizens.
Lets look at that lady who was in the supreme court who married a man 50 years older than her just so she could take his money when he died.
Legal govermental marriage has little to do with love.
Thats what your religion is for.
Daganev2005-11-10 22:07:16
Narsim, should I as a single person with a girlfriend be given those rights? Why not? We obviously love eachother since we are still together.
NO gay people are being denied any rights.
I have three best friends, we have known eachother since we were 3. We do everything together, if one of them were to god forbid get hurt why can't I visit them in the hospital? Why can't we combine our finances and get tax breaks together?
Why can't me and my friends create a family and be forced to be seen by companies and the goverment as a single unit?
Give me one good reason.
NO gay people are being denied any rights.
I have three best friends, we have known eachother since we were 3. We do everything together, if one of them were to god forbid get hurt why can't I visit them in the hospital? Why can't we combine our finances and get tax breaks together?
Why can't me and my friends create a family and be forced to be seen by companies and the goverment as a single unit?
Give me one good reason.
Unknown2005-11-10 22:07:47
I have this deep-down feeling that says that when I grow up, I really want to marry a woman. Because I'm gay. And I love women.
/sarcasm
/sarcasm
Viravain2005-11-10 22:07:50
I'm now thoroughly convinced you are indeed a fool, or merely ignoring the points made in a feeble attempt to rebuild your arguement.
If someone wishes to marry the person they love, who is the same gender - why are they going to marry a woman? If other people wish to marry for the reasons you listed, good for them. They have nothing to do with homosexuals and their right to marry a person of the same gender, and get the same benefits of a heterosexual married couple.
If someone wishes to marry the person they love, who is the same gender - why are they going to marry a woman? If other people wish to marry for the reasons you listed, good for them. They have nothing to do with homosexuals and their right to marry a person of the same gender, and get the same benefits of a heterosexual married couple.
Narsrim2005-11-10 22:08:00
The point is simply that many legal rights are based around marriage. Gay couples cannot achieve these legal rights because they cannot get married.
Whereas as yes, the individual person is not denied the right of marriage, the couple as a whole is denied representation in the same way that a married straight couple can achieve.
Whereas as yes, the individual person is not denied the right of marriage, the couple as a whole is denied representation in the same way that a married straight couple can achieve.
Narsrim2005-11-10 22:09:51
To re-emphasize, a marriage is not a person. It is a union between two people. This union is afforded special rights. If a man and woman can achieve this union and thus achieve these rights but a man and a man or a woman and a woman cannot achieve this union then the rights invested by said union are not available to everyone and as such are denied to specific parties.
Daganev2005-11-10 22:10:49
QUOTE(Viravain @ Nov 10 2005, 02:07 PM)
I'm now thoroughly convinced you are indeed a fool, or merely ignoring the points made in a feeble attempt to rebuild your arguement.
If someone wishes to marry the person they love, who is the same gender - why are they going to marry a woman? If other people wish to marry for the reasons you listed, good for them. They have nothing to do with homosexuals and their right to marry a person of the same gender, and get the same benefits of a heterosexual married couple.
If someone wishes to marry the person they love, who is the same gender - why are they going to marry a woman? If other people wish to marry for the reasons you listed, good for them. They have nothing to do with homosexuals and their right to marry a person of the same gender, and get the same benefits of a heterosexual married couple.
221067
What is stopping said person from going to the church that accepts gay marriage(as NArsrim pointed out they exist) and getting married?
I thought this was an issue of the government not an issue of religion. Since when does the government have any say over who your friends are, or what feelings you have? Religion however has some strong things to say about such things.
Nyla2005-11-10 22:11:37
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 05:07 PM)
Narsim, should I as a single person with a girlfriend be given those rights? Why not? We obviously love eachother since we are still together.Â
221065
Actually they are if they live together for six months. They have entered into a common law marriage.
Daganev2005-11-10 22:12:11
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 10 2005, 02:09 PM)
To re-emphasize, a marriage is not a person. It is a union between two people. This union is afforded special rights. If a man and woman can achieve this union and thus achieve these rights but a man and a man or a woman and a woman cannot achieve this union then the rights invested by said union are not available to everyone and as such are denied to specific parties.
221070
Why is a marriage only two people?
I think marriage should be spread to more than two people. Afterall, I can't just pick one person who I would like to share my life with.
Narsrim2005-11-10 22:12:28
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 06:10 PM)
What is stopping said person from going to the church that accepts gay marriage(as NArsrim pointed out they exist) and getting married?
I thought this was an issue of the government not an issue of religion. Since when does the government have any say over who your friends are, or what feelings you have? Religion however has some strong things to say about such things.
I thought this was an issue of the government not an issue of religion. Since when does the government have any say over who your friends are, or what feelings you have? Religion however has some strong things to say about such things.
221071
FYI: You cannot achieve marriage status in the US by anyone other than the government.
Daganev2005-11-10 22:13:35
QUOTE(nyla @ Nov 10 2005, 02:11 PM)
Actually they are if they live together for six months. They have entered into a common law marriage.
221072
Whats the difference betwen a common law marriage and an official marriage? save the $600 your not paying to the government.
And why doesn't everyone save themselves the $600?
Unknown2005-11-10 22:14:07
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 05:10 PM)
What is stopping said person from going to the church that accepts gay marriage(as NArsrim pointed out they exist) and getting married?
221071
Because as many people have pointed out, getting married in a church
a) means nothing to some people (I'm Jewish - could I get married to my lover in a synagogue? Um, no. Even if I did, would that marriage be accepted by the government of
is not recognized by the governments in 20 states, thus making it USELESS in many casesNarsrim2005-11-10 22:15:47
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 06:13 PM)
Whats the difference betwen a common law marriage and an official marriage? save the $600 your not paying to the government.
And why doesn't everyone save themselves the $600?
And why doesn't everyone save themselves the $600?
221075
No one is stopping you from being a cheap person and doing just that. And legally, there is no difference at least no in the state of WV.
Viravain2005-11-10 22:16:13
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 10 2005, 05:10 PM)
What is stopping said person from going to the church that accepts gay marriage(as NArsrim pointed out they exist) and getting married?
I thought this was an issue of the government not an issue of religion. Since when does the government have any say over who your friends are, or what feelings you have? Religion however has some strong things to say about such things.
I thought this was an issue of the government not an issue of religion. Since when does the government have any say over who your friends are, or what feelings you have? Religion however has some strong things to say about such things.
221071
Should I bring up a water fountain reference? What sense does it make to tell someone they can only drink from one fountain if there are two, based only on the colour of their skin? It makes no sense, obviously.
So, why does it make sense to tell a gay couple they have to go somewhere else to be married, if there are churches where they live already?
I honestly don't understand some people and how they can insist oppression is okay.
