Daganev2005-11-13 02:09:54
Are you implying that marrying someone of the opposite sex is inherently inferior to marrying someone of the same sex?
Shiri2005-11-13 02:10:15
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:01 AM)
To Shiri...
A gay man can get married to any woman , just as a black man or white man can get married to any woman he wants. There is no difference between a black man and a white man, but there is a difference between a man and a woman.
A gay man can get married to any woman , just as a black man or white man can get married to any woman he wants. There is no difference between a black man and a white man, but there is a difference between a man and a woman.
222155
What's the basic difference between a man and a woman if not sex? If you change a man's sex and leave everything else intact, what (for the purpose of marriage) is different from another woman? And if you change a gay man's orientation, what (for the purpose of marriage) is different from another straight man? If it's not about sex there should be no problem.
Unknown2005-11-13 02:11:46
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:09 AM)
Are you implying that marrying someone of the opposite sex is inherently inferior to marrying someone of the same sex?
222163
Yes.
Do you think a gay man marrying a woman is going to be the same as a hterosexual marriage?
Daganev2005-11-13 02:22:38
QUOTE(Avaer @ Nov 12 2005, 06:11 PM)
Yes.
Do you think a gay man marrying a woman is going to be the same as a hterosexual marriage?
Do you think a gay man marrying a woman is going to be the same as a hterosexual marriage?
222166
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married.
The question is why are the people getting married, and why does the state care if you are married or not.
And Shiri, I don't understand your question. Do you mean sex as in a person's gender or in the act of having sex? The difference between a man and a woman is that they have different anatomy. The body is physcially built differently. The concept of marriage is that you have two people, one which falls into catagory A: Husband and one that falls into catagory B: Wife, and there are standards that say who may be a husband and who may be a wife. Those standards are as far as I know, one being a man and one being a woman, the two of wich are not directly related to eachother.
I think your all missing my point since you all seem to be ignoring my example of making Firefighters and police be given the label of "Veteran."
Narsrim2005-11-13 02:24:54
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 12 2005, 10:22 PM)
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married"
222171
How is that relevant to gay marriage?
Unknown2005-11-13 02:24:58
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:22 AM)
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married.
The question is why are the people getting married, and why does the state care if you are married or not.
The question is why are the people getting married, and why does the state care if you are married or not.
222171
So you cannot argue with the apartheid example, and instead wish to redirect into your continuing obsession with semantics?
Daganev2005-11-13 02:37:52
I allready argued with the arparheid example.
The only reason why apratheid doesn't work is because one group is going to be inherently better than the other. Whomever the minority is is going to be segreated against and will have less resources than the majority.
When it comes to marriage, a Heterosexual marraige is not inherently worse off than a homosexual marriage. Up untill the 1970s a Homosexual marriage was an oximoron or a contradiction in terms in all parts of the world. You could have a homosexual relationship and it can be called many things, but Marriage is not one of them.
If you wish to redefine marriage as including a Husband and a Husband or a Wife and a Wife then I ask why not redefine marriage to include more than just two people, and why restrict the Husband and Wife from not being related to eachother?
The only reason why apratheid doesn't work is because one group is going to be inherently better than the other. Whomever the minority is is going to be segreated against and will have less resources than the majority.
When it comes to marriage, a Heterosexual marraige is not inherently worse off than a homosexual marriage. Up untill the 1970s a Homosexual marriage was an oximoron or a contradiction in terms in all parts of the world. You could have a homosexual relationship and it can be called many things, but Marriage is not one of them.
If you wish to redefine marriage as including a Husband and a Husband or a Wife and a Wife then I ask why not redefine marriage to include more than just two people, and why restrict the Husband and Wife from not being related to eachother?
Daganev2005-11-13 02:40:16
QUOTE
NarsrimÂ
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QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 12 2005, 10:22 PM)
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married"
*
How is that relevant to gay marriage?
--------------------
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QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:22 AM)
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married.
The question is why are the people getting married, and why does the state care if you are married or not.
*
So you cannot argue with the apartheid example, and instead wish to redirect into your continuing obsession with semantics?
rolleyes.gif
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QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 12 2005, 10:22 PM)
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married"
*
How is that relevant to gay marriage?
--------------------
You thrust your palm towards Gorgulu the Devourer of Souls and a burst of silver light shoots out from it burning into Gorgulu the Devourer of Souls, who cries out in pain. A frown on Gorgulu the Devourer of Souls's face suddenly changes to horror as his skin begins to glow with an inner silver light. Moonlight erupts from the pores of his skin as he tries to scream but is instead consumed by the power of the moon.
You have slain Gorgulu the Devourer of Souls.
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QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:22 AM)
There have been many marriages both modern and in history that have been made where the two people getting married felt little love or atrraction to eachother before the marriage was made, and sometimes even after years of being married.
The question is why are the people getting married, and why does the state care if you are married or not.
*
So you cannot argue with the apartheid example, and instead wish to redirect into your continuing obsession with semantics?
rolleyes.gif
I'd just like to point out the irony that both people assumed I was answering thier question when I was answering the question of the other person. Narsim, if you wish to know what my responce had to do with gay marriage than ask Avaer since he brought it up. And Avaer if you wish to say that I'm not responding to your apratheid point, then look at what Narsrim quoted, and if you wish to say I'm only arguing semantics, then look at what Narsrim asked me on the last page and refer to his "destroying of my argument."
Unknown2005-11-13 02:47:40
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:37 AM)
When it comes to marriage, a Heterosexual marraige is not inherently worse off than a homosexual marriage.
222188
That is incorrect. Sorry.
Daganev2005-11-13 02:50:32
So your trying to tell me that my parents (i.e. A random straight couple) have a worse marriage than a random gay couple?
Unknown2005-11-13 02:57:21
Come now, let's attempt some semblence of intelligence here.
A hterosexual marriage for gay people is obviously quite unnatural, and hence inferior. A hterosexual marriage for straight people is going to be perfect.
Do you think your grandfather would be equally as happy, productive and fulfilled if he were married to another man?
A hterosexual marriage for gay people is obviously quite unnatural, and hence inferior. A hterosexual marriage for straight people is going to be perfect.
Do you think your grandfather would be equally as happy, productive and fulfilled if he were married to another man?
Xenthos2005-11-13 03:06:36
I hate that argument that a gay man can marry a woman.
A heterosexual man can marry the person he loves.
A homosexual man cannot.
That's the argument, not "oh my, this person CAN marry someone else oh my!"
A heterosexual man can marry the person he loves.
A homosexual man cannot.
That's the argument, not "oh my, this person CAN marry someone else oh my!"
Unknown2005-11-13 03:12:15
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Nov 12 2005, 08:06 PM)
I hate that argument that a gay man can marry a woman.
A heterosexual man can marry the person he loves.
A homosexual man cannot.
That's the argument, not "oh my, this person CAN marry someone else oh my!"
A heterosexual man can marry the person he loves.
A homosexual man cannot.
That's the argument, not "oh my, this person CAN marry someone else oh my!"
222201
Daganev2005-11-13 03:23:27
According to the people who hate the living waters program (Its a program that you can't find on the net save from an administrative point of view, I heard about it on NPR the other day.) The "ex-gay" crowd is a bunch of liars when they say that they have changed and have happy marriages.
So I don't know who to believe, there are rampant statistics on both parts. I saw one that said 90% of people who do the living waters program are a "success" and I saw on that said 11% of gay men have stopped being gay by going to such programs. The people who go to these programs are people who have a firm belief that their actions are wrong and want them changed.
In my family, historically we have all viewed marriage as a religious obiligation in which your goal is to have children so that you may go through all the experiences of having and raising children. Obviously not all people view this as the reason to get married, so its really quite irrelevant. From my persepctive and the perspective of the community I live in, getting a marriage document from the state is more a question of issue of questions dealing with morality issues in dealing with the laws of commerce and the like more than it is an issue of marriage. Afterall, the state could care less if you have adultery or not. So the question of being happy, productive and fufilled is really a religious question, not one that matters in issues of state marriages.
So I don't know who to believe, there are rampant statistics on both parts. I saw one that said 90% of people who do the living waters program are a "success" and I saw on that said 11% of gay men have stopped being gay by going to such programs. The people who go to these programs are people who have a firm belief that their actions are wrong and want them changed.
In my family, historically we have all viewed marriage as a religious obiligation in which your goal is to have children so that you may go through all the experiences of having and raising children. Obviously not all people view this as the reason to get married, so its really quite irrelevant. From my persepctive and the perspective of the community I live in, getting a marriage document from the state is more a question of issue of questions dealing with morality issues in dealing with the laws of commerce and the like more than it is an issue of marriage. Afterall, the state could care less if you have adultery or not. So the question of being happy, productive and fufilled is really a religious question, not one that matters in issues of state marriages.
Daganev2005-11-13 03:26:25
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Nov 12 2005, 07:06 PM)
I hate that argument that a gay man can marry a woman.
A heterosexual man can marry the person he loves.
A homosexual man cannot.
That's the argument, not "oh my, this person CAN marry someone else oh my!"
A heterosexual man can marry the person he loves.
A homosexual man cannot.
That's the argument, not "oh my, this person CAN marry someone else oh my!"
222201
Can a pedaphile marry the person he loves?
Can a person who loves his siblings marry the person he loves? (I'm bringing this up a lot because I'm in the middle of reading the Game of Thrones series)
Can a man who loves more than one person marry all the people he loves?
Can a man who loves a person who is dead marry the person they love retroactively?
It is often the case that people can not marry the people they love, however thats not realy an issue for State issued Marriages.
Daganev2005-11-13 03:29:56
To state this more clearly... Marrying someone you love is an issue for your Religion, not an issue for the State.
Xenthos2005-11-13 03:33:56
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 12 2005, 11:26 PM)
Can a pedaphile marry the person he loves?
Only if the person he loves is old enough to legally enter into a marriage, and if they are not the same gender.
QUOTE(Daganev)
Can a person who loves his siblings marry the person he loves? (I'm bringing this up a lot because I'm in the middle of reading the Game of Thrones series)
Can a man who loves more than one person marry all the people he loves?
Can a man who loves more than one person marry all the people he loves?
These are both no's, and may or may not need to be looked at themselves. *shrug* Not talking about them at this time.
QUOTE(Daganev)
Can a man who loves a person who is dead marry the person they love retroactively?
Dead people have slight issues in agreeing to anything, much less marriage.
QUOTE(Daganev)
It is often the case that people can not marry the people they love, however thats not realy an issue for State issued Marriages.
222209
The state needs to be equal. It is illegal to discriminate against anyone based on gender, and now orientation, yet it refuses marriage based on gender? Hm.
Daganev2005-11-13 03:38:09
QUOTE
These are both no's, and may or may not need to be looked at themselves. *shrug* Not talking about them at this time.
Why not?
This is not a case of descriminatiing based on gender. If it were, it would be illegal to have male/female restrooms, and it would be illegal for public universities to have seperate dorms for men or women.
Unknown2005-11-13 03:39:26
QUOTE(daganev @ Nov 13 2005, 02:23 PM)
According to the people who hate the living waters program (Its a program that you can't find on the net save from an administrative point of view, I heard about it on NPR the other day.)Â The "ex-gay" crowd is a bunch of liars when they say that they have changed and have happy marriages.
So I don't know who to believe, there are rampant statistics on both parts. I saw one that said 90% of people who do the living waters program are a "success" and I saw on that said 11% of gay men have stopped being gay by going to such programs. The people who go to these programs are people who have a firm belief that their actions are wrong and want them changed.
So I don't know who to believe, there are rampant statistics on both parts. I saw one that said 90% of people who do the living waters program are a "success" and I saw on that said 11% of gay men have stopped being gay by going to such programs. The people who go to these programs are people who have a firm belief that their actions are wrong and want them changed.
222208
I will make you a deal. If you try to turn gay, I will try to turn straight. We'll see how we go.
Unknown2005-11-13 03:40:07
Good gods, Daganev. I cannot believe you brought that obscene practice up as if it were a valid argument.
QUOTE(PFLAG)
Facts to consider regarding so called "reparative therapy"
The record shows that “reparative therapy†has no support from the major medical and mental health professional organizations. Organizations opposed to the practice of “reparative therapy†include: the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Medical Association.
  * In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed the term "homosexuality" from the list of mental and emotional disorders. Sexual orientation is not a disorder, therefore, it does not need to be cured.
  * In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence shows that reparative therapy does not work and that it can do more harm than good.Â
  * In 1998, the American Psychiatric Association stated it was opposed to reparative therapy, stating "psychiatric literature strongly demonstrates that treatment attempts to change sexual orientation are ineffective. However, the potential risks are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior..."
  * The American Medical Association, states in its policy number H-160.991, that it “opposes, the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientationâ€.
  * In 2001, The US Surgeon General's Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior asserted that homosexuality is not "a reversible lifestyle choiceâ€.
When responding to questions on "reparative therapy," it is important that we empathize with the GLBT people, who are involved with these ministries, as well as their families, because they all are the victims of misinformation.
The record shows that “reparative therapy†has no support from the major medical and mental health professional organizations. Organizations opposed to the practice of “reparative therapy†include: the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, and the American Medical Association.
  * In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed the term "homosexuality" from the list of mental and emotional disorders. Sexual orientation is not a disorder, therefore, it does not need to be cured.
  * In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence shows that reparative therapy does not work and that it can do more harm than good.Â
  * In 1998, the American Psychiatric Association stated it was opposed to reparative therapy, stating "psychiatric literature strongly demonstrates that treatment attempts to change sexual orientation are ineffective. However, the potential risks are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior..."
  * The American Medical Association, states in its policy number H-160.991, that it “opposes, the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientationâ€.
  * In 2001, The US Surgeon General's Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior asserted that homosexuality is not "a reversible lifestyle choiceâ€.
When responding to questions on "reparative therapy," it is important that we empathize with the GLBT people, who are involved with these ministries, as well as their families, because they all are the victims of misinformation.
