Since the question of being considered a griefer is hot and heavy on this board, I wanted to create a thread for this subject.

What should be considered elements of poor sportsmanship in Lusternia? By sportsmanship, I mean this. Ultimately, this is a game where everybody is supposed to have fun--what actions do some players take that could be considered poor sportsmanship?

To me, personally, here are some things that I think define poor sportsmanship.

* Attacking Novices willy-nilly. This would include things like raiding a nexus and killing everybody in a city, including the novices.

* Looking for opportunities to get orgs while they are weakest--I'm not talking about when the only time you can attack is to do it sneaky, but rather people waiting for when the fewest people are logged in and then go destroy something important to the city, instead of looking for a challenge.

* Jumping people in their private manses.

* Using Karma Curses or Avenger for strategic purposes, rather than as the deterent it's supposed to be. For instance, if you both engage in PK and haven't griefed each other, why use them during a Village revolt or something similar?

Any other thoughts?

This isn't even possible. I don't understand how so many people, players and admins alike, can make these statements.

First and foremost, novices have Grace of Innocence. They cannot be attacked. When Amaru raided Glomdoring (I wasn't there, but people like to assume I was), what novices were slain? To date, no one can name a single novice.

I am tired of people who use the term "novice" in their claims (as well as "random") as a means to try and have more impact or fluff. Until you can verify or justify that statement, stop using the word "novice" until one is actually slain.

=====================================================

Furthermore, I am also tired (and an admin did this at one point) of people claiming that in Glomdoring, people were beckoned, slain, , beckoned, slain, etc to the point that they just couldn't do anything. That's not true. If you die and conglutinate, you gain Grace. It lasts 15 minutes. No one was killed over-and-over unless he or she rejected grace. While yes, I do not agree with what Amaru did, I also equally dislike the garbage that people add-in to make it sound worse than it was /rant.

This goes two ways. I could, for example, attempt to raid Crow while there are a a fair share of Glomdorians about. In fact, I have done this. I ended up killing five people who chased me out (because they just kept attacking). They prayed and were *very* unhappy. While I wasn't successful, I also didn't die.

On the flip side, I can raid when few people are about. This means less players end up dying (usually unless I'm just off) and I can get to business without personally damaging players.

I would much rather slay the guards around Crow and try and kill Crow versus kill the players protecting Crow, have them pray/conglutinate, and then try to get Crow.

=====================================================

As for the notion of number, I think it is less important than quality. If there are 10 Glomdorians about or say one, Ethelon... I'd probably be more likely to raid against the 10 than Ethelon because Ethelon knows how to manipulate the home-turf-advantage to drastically raise my chances of dying versus the 10 who likely do not.

This cannot be done now unless people don't "lock their doors." Manses are no longer considered one big local area. No flow, no wisp, no beam... alongside no teleport, etc with monos.

Is Karma supposed to be solely a deterent? If that's the case, why do we have Karma blessing? They can have just as much impact against a foe as a curse can (seriously, life blessing for example is quite nice). One person can accumulate karma to get lots of blessings to "fight better" quite easily.

That's kind of the point of raids though. You don't raid when you have 5 fighters and the other side has 20 defenders. You raid when you have some fighters and the other side has close to no one to defend.. makes your chances of success going up.

That said I don't agree with it in many cases, especially when it comes to things like Supernals or Demon Lords being slain and your side unable to do a thing about it because only you and 3 novices are around. It happens though. And from a tactical point of view, raiding when there is no one to defend is perfectly valid.

Why do people assume that the raiding team sits around and waits until there's no one around to defend? It's happened on all sides. Magnagora has been accused of hitting Supernals when Celest is near empty and Serenwilde has been accused of the same, in regards to Glomdoring. Everyone disputes such claims but is quick to accuse others. Fasciiiiinating.

I meant it rather that way: When would you attack Nil.. when 1) Daevos, Kaervas, Murphy, Eiru, Thorgal, Ixion and Alger are around or when 2) Ixion and Alger are around.. ?

If you want to attack to achieve something that is not just to mess with Magnagorans.

Plus, look at what happens when people raid when "others are around." One side erects a shrine, puts up worldburn, and bam. It doens't matter if 50 people are around at that point.

I probably shouldn't have posted specific examples, since I was trying to poll people to see what they would consider poor sportsmanship play in Lusternia, etc...

These are just my opinions, I've never felt I've been the victim of griefing by anybody (well except maybe that time Amaru jumped me on the bed).

But I'm more curious what the player base (and especially the admins) would consider poor sportsmanship.

sports·man·ship ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spôrtsmn-shp, sprts-)
n.

1. The fact or practice of participating in sports or a sport.

2. Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

==============================================

Just working with the definition of sportmanship, does anyone want this for their enemies? Who wants to be courteous and fair to your diametric foe?

Poor sportsmanship in Lust would constitute as, bug abuse, alt abuse, exploiting an ability to get around something. Etc, etc. If one can avoid doing those things, anything goes.

Well, possibly because this is a game, not a real-life war. Even if you take into account the Role Playing aspects of it. It's still a game, which currently supports four communities, all of which are allowed to exist. Unlike a pen and paper RPG, there are dozens of players on each side, so it's not just a small group of players vs. a bunch of NPCs. Unlike a FPS, the game is meant to be long term, not a 30 minute skirmish.

That's why sportsmanship has been entering the equation, and I think why the admins have made recent posts about things. If one team constantly beats down another, the player base of that group may leave, thus further unbalancing the game, and this game was not designed for communes or cities to be destroyed.

I think the kicker this year for posts about this aspect was Guido's post that shocked Estarra: "Faethorn is our Jerusalem". IC, you can hate, OOC you should respect the player base, and knowing that can influence your choices.

I guess the problem I have is that I don't feel that IC actions should be influenced under the pretense that "this is a game." I think once we achieve that as a whole, we enter Lusternia: The Chatroom.

If Narsrim or Malicia or Aesyra, etc were to ever acknowledge that "this is a game" and as such "you cannot really defeat the Taint" then everything becomes vanilla.

Immersion is one thing, but do remember to acknowledge that, OOC, these are people trying to play and enjoy the game just as you are. For the most part, many of them don't want to die, lose experience, 'feel forced' to defend and quest and do all this stuff because it's more fun for someone else to do the killing and just QQ until it's over (or, conversely, log in only to defend before leaving again.) I've heard at least a couple people say in times past, "RP be , I'm sick of this."

Denial quests and relatively open targets are an inherent part of the game, but that does not necessarily mean they have to be gone after to such a degree as to frustrate others.

"Ah! But they're our enemies, and IC we know nothing but to kill and frustrate them!" you might respond.

In this regard, then, sportsmanship might be considered the OOC control on IC actions in respect to the average's person's enjoyability of the game. Yes, there are some who thrive on combat, and many who love the thrill of a sporadic raid. When it becomes daily and constant, however, many players will throw in the cards and find something else to do for a while until things calm down.

Of course, combat isn't the only thing this applies to. There are the quests, such as the inner sea battles, even village quests, scholars, pilgrims, et cetera. Generally, though, these only take time and a little bit of time is the only thing you lose when doing them. They do not have nearly the same psychological impact as killing another person or their organizational icons for those who do not approach the game by distancing themselves from their characters.

Perhaps, then, sportsmanship is holding enough respect for another as to help keep the game relatively interesting for both friends and enemies, so that you still have people willing to stand and fight you, or play with you, at the end of the day, or week, or month.

That being said, do remember that this is merely my opinion, and not any reflection of the rest of the administration.

There's a difference between 'Sportsmanship' inside and outside the game. In game, well that's your own choice and it depends entirely on your character. "Who wants to be courteous and fair to their diometric foe?" Aiakon is. Usually. But he could just as well be a total bastard, and I wouldn't regard my behaviour as unsportsmanlike.

Out of Character is where Sportsmanship comes in. In a game of tennis, or cricket, any other example, you'd shake hands and compliment your opponent(s) on their play. Whether you were beaten or not. You'd not flare up into a huge rage, scream at them, accuse them of cheating, go to the Forums and denounce them/complain bitterly. That is not good sportsmanship, and generally speaking if you do it, no one wants to play with you. I don't see why similar rules shouldn't apply to Lusternia. It's simply a matter of accepting the losses of your character with equanimity, and being fundamentally nice to others, person to person. Of course, If you've got to the stage where losing a village IC ruins your day OOC, and your lusternian character has completely melded into you in real life, then obviously, this whole sportsmanship thing as I just defined it.. doesn't make much sense..

P.S That took me about 20 minutes to write because I'm so hungover I can't think straight. So if anyone's made these points or similar ones, ahead of me.. sorry.

I agree. I reall do, however, I think that part of the problem is the notion that people "feel forced" when that is never the case. I find that people tend to suggest that the only people who should consider "this is a game" is the aggressive party. The defensive party should also consider "this is a game" too because nothing can be done that cannot also be undone at a later time. You shouldn't be afraid to "win" anymore than you should be afraid to "lose."



When the focus of the game is combat (which Matt himself has said when speaking of IRE games), I don't understand why people who excel at combat (which is always achieved through hard work, devotion, patience, and raw time) should "tone-it-down." If anything, I learned to be a good combatant in Aetolia because I was in several do-or-die situations.

Furthermore, these same persons who could care less about combat tend to become quite upset when combat related things (like the destruction of some city/commune guards) occur. I am of the belief that people are "good" at combat because they invested the time and energy to achieve that state. That's a personal choice. If you do not opt to invest the time and energy, you should not upset when your lack of investment does not blossom when something wicked approaches.



Everything boils down to a matter of a time. Experience, gold, quests... time can do and undo all the results. As for sportsmanship, I think you viewpoint holds a lot of weight philosophically, but the reality is that people who opt to not fight, etc. are no more likely to do so if you "play nice" or "get down to business."

I am very much sure that Eiru, Daevos, Thorgal, Murphy, Ixion, Alger, Xenthos, Ethelon, Kaervas, etc. will all be around to play against me. In fact, I find that these people are more willing to come at me and "play" when I give them good reasons.

Correction. Xen's willing... I'd personally rather stay far, far away. Fighting doesn't overly excite me all that much... I like it as a diversion now and then, but actually sinking into it for hours at a time gets me all frazzled.

Xen, on the other hand, just dives right back in. Hmph.

What I find most frustrating is not that a whole bunch of things die, but that it happens when I am not around to do anything about it. If I am online to at least ATTEMPT to defend... it's annoying, but at least I'm able to try something. I'd much rather conglutinate a few times than wake up to 30+ guards dead, leaving a general atmosphere of "What can possibly be done about this... we don't have anyone around at those times... even if we do strengthen ourselves, there will still be a huge gap at certain times each month where someone can just waltz through."

Edit: And yes, I know it's a 24 hour game, things happen at all times. I'm not suggesting that it be shut down at certain periods, that would be :censored:, I'm just saying that I find the situation frustrating.

I'm in the same boat. Faethorn is raided all the time... when I'm never here. You just have to pick up the pieces and go on. The same with villages, I miss at least 50% of villages.

Well, when do you show up, we tend to be driven out in short order. If you weren't so good, maybe you'd get to play there with us a bit longer.

And yeah, villages are now so RARE, that even one or two off of your main time will have you going for weeks without even seeing one. Ugh.