Unknown2005-11-15 05:43:50
QUOTE(stangmar @ Nov 14 2005, 11:43 PM)
As long as the penalty isn't STACKABLE. meaning, if you die to 5 serens in a row, you don't have a L5 penalty.
223507
Then it would negate the point of a penalty, wouldn't it? So you can just run out, die, and then keep dieing, and never have to lose more xp in the long run than with a single death.
Murphy2005-11-15 13:08:34
QUOTE(Ye of Little Faith @ Nov 15 2005, 04:02 AM)
There are a LOT of anti-praying skills/abilities/defs. Vitae, lich, transmigration, resurgem, conglutinate, and Ressurection - and then good old Immolate.
Last I heard, xp-loss from death is much smaller here than it is on other IRE games.
So, in conclusion - play your cards right, and you never, ever have to pray again. If you're going to raid on Prime, expect appropriate XP losses.
This isn't World of Warcraft - and, in your own words, Murphy, harden up.
Last I heard, xp-loss from death is much smaller here than it is on other IRE games.
So, in conclusion - play your cards right, and you never, ever have to pray again. If you're going to raid on Prime, expect appropriate XP losses.
This isn't World of Warcraft - and, in your own words, Murphy, harden up.
223104
firstly, I'm quite aware this isn't WoW
Secondly, you can't be jumped randomly in achaea for no good reason, unless you're mark.
Thirdly, I don't have lich, resurgem, transmigration or access to anyone who will resurrect or soulrezz me. So no, I don't get the option of playing my cards right and never having to pray. When you get to lvl 75+ and have to pray, you'll know what I mean.
EDIT: Yes, i'm in a bastard of a mood but you get my general drift about the topic
Edi: And NO personal attacks.
EDIT: Damn shiri, get back in your cage. YOLF needs to learn to think more before he posts and to stop acting like a tool
Xenthos2005-11-15 14:18:32
He doesn't *need* to think, Murphy. He gets transmigrate *and* can be resurgemed, so he's all set. 
Narsrim2005-11-15 14:20:11
QUOTE(stangmar @ Nov 14 2005, 10:53 PM)
Narsrim, would you AT LEAST try harder to hide that you just want Magnagora to lose a lot more exp from dying to you, so that you have the satisfaction of ruining hours of work?
223443
You shouldn't lose experience period. If you wouldn't try to raid/break demesnes, you wouldn't pray.
Xenthos2005-11-15 14:28:08
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 15 2005, 10:20 AM)
You shouldn't lose experience period. If you wouldn't try to raid/break demesnes, you wouldn't pray.
223628
Um. 1) Disconnected while fighting, pray. 2) Jumped while fighting, unless you have every escape skill and perfect knowledge on how to best use 'em, odds are you will be praying. All it takes is the NPC getting the final hit for vitae, and there is no suspect- they can keep on going. 3) Jumped by three different people while hunting, first two drop you to vitae while third observes, then third does finishing to force a pray while you're defenceless.
Just three reasons off the top of my head, which do happen. You've even used #2 to your benefit before. Not everyone is you, Narsrim.
Narsrim2005-11-15 14:31:44
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Nov 15 2005, 10:28 AM)
Um. 1) Disconnected while fighting, pray. 2) Jumped while fighting, unless you have every escape skill and perfect knowledge on how to best use 'em, odds are you will be praying. All it takes is the NPC getting the final hit, and there is no suspect- they can keep on going. 3) Jumped by three different people while hunting, first two drop you to vitae while third observes, then third does finishing to force a pray while you're defenceless.
Just three reasons off the top of my head, which do happen. You've even used #2 to your benefit before. Not everyone is you, Narsrim.
Just three reasons off the top of my head, which do happen. You've even used #2 to your benefit before. Not everyone is you, Narsrim.
223632
If you disconnect while bashing/fighting, you deserve to lose. There should be some penalty because this is an online virtual world that is not molded to accomodate each individual player, but the game as a whole.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
Cwin2005-11-15 14:44:45
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 15 2005, 10:31 AM)
If you disconnect while bashing/fighting, you deserve to lose. There should be some penalty because this is an online virtual world that is not molded to accomodate each individual player, but the game as a whole.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
223633
Disconnect: They mean if your connection dies off, not if you're cheating (which is issuable anyway). Broadband connections aren't perfect. My Dial-up, meanwhile, shuts off every hour or so with the program crashing to boot.
Jumped: yah, that works. I'll remember that.
Group: this game IS about groups. Any time you piss of one person you'll tend to have two of their friends wanting a piece of you too. Meanwhile, the cities don't have any mushroom makers and I thought we were trying to not create more reasons to make the cities dependant on the communes.
In any case, while the game CAN live on as it is, it doesn't explain why it's BETTER to keep the current system rather than to change it (other than the old "Coders have more things to do" bit which, frankly, is for the coders to decide: they may get angry over their current project and switch to something else that's easier. Also, I bet alot of the needed code is already set within the game, since exp gain 'levels' are addressed in Harmony, Autumn, and Human race advantages, while 'exp garnishment' is seen in Harmony Curses)
Narsrim2005-11-15 14:47:36
All cities have access to spores at the moment. Celest has Serenwilde; Magnagora has Glomdoring. If you don't like it, too bad. I tried to get spores made for Commune only and it didn't happen because I it appears the idea was for cities to be able to use them too.
Cwin2005-11-15 15:47:27
Alright then, everyone can use spores, for bad or for worse.
Now back to the actual argument at hand: that while we CAN live with this current system, it's not giving us any benifits to keep it over another system, especialy since the current system. Titans are too easy to obtain, 'Random' PK (which many complain about) turns into grief complaints thanks to the current system.
A working no-EXPloss system won't solve it all, but this and a few other changes being mentioned will do us ALOT better than what we have now.
Now back to the actual argument at hand: that while we CAN live with this current system, it's not giving us any benifits to keep it over another system, especialy since the current system. Titans are too easy to obtain, 'Random' PK (which many complain about) turns into grief complaints thanks to the current system.
A working no-EXPloss system won't solve it all, but this and a few other changes being mentioned will do us ALOT better than what we have now.
Xenthos2005-11-15 18:40:31
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 15 2005, 10:31 AM)
If you disconnect while bashing/fighting, you deserve to lose. There should be some penalty because this is an online virtual world that is not molded to accomodate each individual player, but the game as a whole.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
223633
How does vitae elixir help you if you're fighting a merian, and some moondancer/shadowdancer/nihilist/celestine walks up and starts dropping aeon/afflictions in the middle, locks you down if you don't have tumble or focus mind, and then just lets the NPC kill you twice? After the first vitae, if they aren't panicking, they have a chance to run- assuming the ent doesn't tick in time or you don't have balance/eq to just lock them down again.
Or better yet, you just tie them down the first time for the NPC, then take the actual kill yourself so you can be assured of them actually dying and also say, "Well, I wasn't actually TRYING to make them die to the NPC, see, I got suspect the second time...!"
If three+ people kill me individually, I have time to sip a vitae in between. If a group shows up and each take turns dropping me until I have to pray, there's nothing I can do about it. You're trying to say that people *never ever have to pray*. That's balogna. It happens. Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but once again, not everybody is named Narsrim.
Narsrim2005-11-15 18:56:02
QUOTE(Xenthos @ Nov 15 2005, 02:40 PM)
How does vitae elixir help you if you're fighting a merian, and some moondancer/shadowdancer/nihilist/celestine walks up and starts dropping aeon/afflictions in the middle, locks you down if you don't have tumble or focus mind, and then just lets the NPC kill you twice? After the first vitae, if they aren't panicking, they have a chance to run- assuming the ent doesn't tick in time or you don't have balance/eq to just lock them down again.
Or better yet, you just tie them down the first time for the NPC, then take the actual kill yourself so you can be assured of them actually dying and also say, "Well, I wasn't actually TRYING to make them die to the NPC, see, I got suspect the second time...!"
If three+ people kill me individually, I have time to sip a vitae in between. If a group shows up and each take turns dropping me until I have to pray, there's nothing I can do about it. You're trying to say that people *never ever have to pray*. That's balogna. It happens. Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but once again, not everybody is named Narsrim.
Or better yet, you just tie them down the first time for the NPC, then take the actual kill yourself so you can be assured of them actually dying and also say, "Well, I wasn't actually TRYING to make them die to the NPC, see, I got suspect the second time...!"
If three+ people kill me individually, I have time to sip a vitae in between. If a group shows up and each take turns dropping me until I have to pray, there's nothing I can do about it. You're trying to say that people *never ever have to pray*. That's balogna. It happens. Maybe it doesn't happen to you, but once again, not everybody is named Narsrim.
223706
What are you after? Do you think you should be able to exist in a virtual world without consequence?
First, if someone is continually targetting you with the method described above to intentionally circumvent Avenger, I'd say you could easily issue over it. While it does happen accidently (you push hexes in on someone, they die before you regain equilibrium - which is like 10 seconds), if it happens more than once within a short period of time, I'd issue.
Second, if three people can kill you individually YOU SHOULD DIE! I cannot emphasize this enough:
You have no "right" to be able to bash without consequence. You have no right to be able to quest without consequence. If by your actions you draw harm in your direction, it is your responsibility to get out of it. If you cannot and you die and pray, you are given protection (or prime) for 30 irl days (that's like over 2 ic years).
If you practice and become skilled at the game (which includes combat) the chances of the situation you describe are slim to none. But Matt himself has said that IRE is about combat. If you suck at combat and you don't learn how to "fight to stay alive" then when something wicked comes, you are at risk. You may lose experience. That's how it works.
This isn't a mush. You aren't entitled to a peaceful virtual life void of consequence.
Terenas2005-11-15 19:01:59
Personally I think the exp lost from death should be increased, but there should be no additional experience lost associated as a soul without mana. Case being, in Achaea, Irzadi's computer somehow locked up when he was in the Underworld and he got killed, but for some odd reasons he was still connected to Achaea and stayed there as a soul for hours. He lost in excess of 60-70 levels when he came back. As for Murphy's case, he got d/c while bashing, then came back dead, he started praying, then got d/c again and it works as if he never started praying.
Make the initial experience lost from dying higher (except in enemied areas, those are already high enough) but take away the exp drain as a soul. It's just insults to injuries, doesn't do anything but frustrates the players more.
P.S.- We so should keep defenses after death like in Imperian, especially with the cost of power feats and abilities that can only be activated at certain times (Drawdown/Nightkiss/totem spirits etc.)
Make the initial experience lost from dying higher (except in enemied areas, those are already high enough) but take away the exp drain as a soul. It's just insults to injuries, doesn't do anything but frustrates the players more.
P.S.- We so should keep defenses after death like in Imperian, especially with the cost of power feats and abilities that can only be activated at certain times (Drawdown/Nightkiss/totem spirits etc.)
Xenthos2005-11-15 19:07:05
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 15 2005, 02:56 PM)
What are you after? Do you think you should be able to exist in a virtual world without consequence?
223708
But there *is* consequence. With the suggested change here, you *still have to pay* for your deaths, they just do not impact what you have already gained. How is that so bad, Narsrim? How does that remove all consequence? It doesn't. It just means that one death doesn't remove what has already had so much time put into it.
And yes, I know the chances are slim once you have a lot of skills / know how to use them. I rarely pray myself. I am not even discussing this as myself, but as the average player who *can not escape very easily*. Tumble is an amazing skill, focus mind is necessary, spores are great, so is vitae... but not everyone has them all, or can afford to get them.
It seems like you're so used to having access to all of these skills that you do not even remember what it's like to not have them. At least try.
Note that I am not saying "Give everyone infinite PORTALS so they can escape at will!" People will still die. It won't be as psychologically crippling when they don't lose what they have already invested, just future investment.
Stangmar2005-11-15 21:07:30
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Nov 15 2005, 07:31 AM)
If you disconnect while bashing/fighting, you deserve to lose. There should be some penalty because this is an online virtual world that is not molded to accomodate each individual player, but the game as a whole.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
As for being jumped, VITAE ELIXIR is your friend. On prime, you will lose like what... 1% experience and the target cannot attack you for 30 irl days. Off Prime, you can conglutinate so we are talking like 3% max.
And as for this 3+ people example, that's how the game works. Groups > individuals. If you tick off three people then there is nothing that stops each person from killing you individually. However, EVERYONE has access to spores now so I don't even see how this is relevant. You die, get mono/spore away.
223633
I can't believe you're saying that you selfish, arrogant son of a
. If my DSL connection dies on me, it's MY fault? I deserve to die for not having a 100% reliable DSL connection? Where the is the logic?Richter2005-11-15 22:37:52
Yes, great idea! Make the initial death cost as much as it would to pray, unless you vitae or something, and then if you are rezzed, you get back as much as you wouldn't have lost praying, if that makes sense.
Thus, the DC/pray problem is solved!
Thus, the DC/pray problem is solved!
Cwin2005-11-15 23:38:38
Nars. No one is looking for a non-consequense life here. Our characters care little enough about death as it is for that.
We want a penalty for death. We just don't want it to be an Exp-loss. That's ALL. Die all you want and cry about it, just cry over some OTHER penalty.
I'm asking for an exp debt you have to pay, sort of like having a Harmony Curse put on you. I'm saying that the curse stacks, so too many deaths can end up meaning you will gain NO exp for a time. Already Demigod? The punishment is less ESSENCE from kills. Want to see how reckless they'll be when they run the risk of not getting ANY essence for a time?
In fact, let's add another feature to the matter: Enemy areas. If you're defending your territory (loyal to it) and you kill an established enemy then some of the exp drained will siphon to you. Boom, more incentive for people to rely less on guards and more on themselves, no?
Harsh? It's easier to take than the crasy exp drop you take if you die there now. Easier? Sure, that level 80 will be able to keep having fun but as the deaths add up and, unlike Curses, can't be shaken off, they'll be stuck at level 80 for a long...long time. Do that to a Titan/Demigod and..well.. how strong are they without essence?
In the end, you STILL lose the exp. However, you, at least, don't backtrack, which is realy what makes people so angry.. going from level 70 to level 60. That's all that's being argued about, realy.
We want a penalty for death. We just don't want it to be an Exp-loss. That's ALL. Die all you want and cry about it, just cry over some OTHER penalty.
I'm asking for an exp debt you have to pay, sort of like having a Harmony Curse put on you. I'm saying that the curse stacks, so too many deaths can end up meaning you will gain NO exp for a time. Already Demigod? The punishment is less ESSENCE from kills. Want to see how reckless they'll be when they run the risk of not getting ANY essence for a time?
In fact, let's add another feature to the matter: Enemy areas. If you're defending your territory (loyal to it) and you kill an established enemy then some of the exp drained will siphon to you. Boom, more incentive for people to rely less on guards and more on themselves, no?
Harsh? It's easier to take than the crasy exp drop you take if you die there now. Easier? Sure, that level 80 will be able to keep having fun but as the deaths add up and, unlike Curses, can't be shaken off, they'll be stuck at level 80 for a long...long time. Do that to a Titan/Demigod and..well.. how strong are they without essence?
In the end, you STILL lose the exp. However, you, at least, don't backtrack, which is realy what makes people so angry.. going from level 70 to level 60. That's all that's being argued about, realy.
Narsrim2005-11-15 23:39:38
I'm sorry if people can suck it up and work harder to fix problems. Your DSL sucks? I leveled into the 80s this summer on Dial Up that gave out all the time. I died a lot to it. Instead of complaining about it, I worked harder. It wasn't always fun, but I did well for myself.
As for combat, I'm going to start handing out kegs of "harden the f*ck up", © Murphy. I didn't get it any easier than anyone else nor did any of the good fighters. It is trial by fire, you live or you burn.
As for combat, I'm going to start handing out kegs of "harden the f*ck up", © Murphy. I didn't get it any easier than anyone else nor did any of the good fighters. It is trial by fire, you live or you burn.
Narsrim2005-11-15 23:45:51
QUOTE(Cwin @ Nov 15 2005, 07:38 PM)
Nars. No one is looking for a non-consequense life here. Our characters care little enough about death as it is for that.
We want a penalty for death. We just don't want it to be an Exp-loss. That's ALL. Die all you want and cry about it, just cry over some OTHER penalty.
I'm asking for an exp debt you have to pay, sort of like having a Harmony Curse put on you. I'm saying that the curse stacks, so too many deaths can end up meaning you will gain NO exp for a time. Already Demigod? The punishment is less ESSENCE from kills. Want to see how reckless they'll be when they run the risk of not getting ANY essence for a time?
In fact, let's add another feature to the matter: Enemy areas. If you're defending your territory (loyal to it) and you kill an established enemy then some of the exp drained will siphon to you. Boom, more incentive for people to rely less on guards and more on themselves, no?
Harsh? It's easier to take than the crasy exp drop you take if you die there now. Easier? Sure, that level 80 will be able to keep having fun but as the deaths add up and, unlike Curses, can't be shaken off, they'll be stuck at level 80 for a long...long time. Do that to a Titan/Demigod and..well.. how strong are they without essence?Â
In the end, you STILL lose the exp. However, you, at least, don't backtrack, which is realy what makes people so angry.. going from level 70 to level 60. That's all that's being argued about, realy.
We want a penalty for death. We just don't want it to be an Exp-loss. That's ALL. Die all you want and cry about it, just cry over some OTHER penalty.
I'm asking for an exp debt you have to pay, sort of like having a Harmony Curse put on you. I'm saying that the curse stacks, so too many deaths can end up meaning you will gain NO exp for a time. Already Demigod? The punishment is less ESSENCE from kills. Want to see how reckless they'll be when they run the risk of not getting ANY essence for a time?
In fact, let's add another feature to the matter: Enemy areas. If you're defending your territory (loyal to it) and you kill an established enemy then some of the exp drained will siphon to you. Boom, more incentive for people to rely less on guards and more on themselves, no?
Harsh? It's easier to take than the crasy exp drop you take if you die there now. Easier? Sure, that level 80 will be able to keep having fun but as the deaths add up and, unlike Curses, can't be shaken off, they'll be stuck at level 80 for a long...long time. Do that to a Titan/Demigod and..well.. how strong are they without essence?Â
In the end, you STILL lose the exp. However, you, at least, don't backtrack, which is realy what makes people so angry.. going from level 70 to level 60. That's all that's being argued about, realy.
223826
I don't like this sytem at all. First, I don't see any real time to change a huge portion of the base code to achieve this "think of me the same way, but with snuggles" system. Furthermore, you DO gain a lot of experience upon killing raiders in neutral/enemy territory. In Paavik once, I gained -25%- (although I did have a lot of kills) at level 89. Munsia, Malicia, etc all gained lots of exp too. The trick to gaining it is not dying a bunch in the process.
Leef killed Kaervas in neutral/conglute territory on Astral. She gained like 15%. That's a lot of experience for a last-hit group kill.
Narsrim2005-11-15 23:47:07
Furthermore, the idea of having "bonuses" at level 80 is that if you aren't careful, you could lose them. With Cwin's suggested idea, they'd be permanent - I don't think so.
Shiri2005-11-16 00:15:37
QUOTE(terenas @ Nov 15 2005, 07:01 PM)
P.S.- We so should keep defenses after death like in Imperian, especially with the cost of power feats and abilities that can only be activated at certain times (Drawdown/Nightkiss/totem spirits etc.)
223711
Have wanted this for ages.
