Unknown2005-12-01 12:51:07
Please lay off the personal attacks. A player left, it's a game, people who aren't enjoying the game are going to go somewhere else.
If this continues this tread will be closed.
If this continues this tread will be closed.
Cwin2005-12-01 15:50:59
QUOTE(Joli @ Dec 1 2005, 03:30 AM)
Thank you. I 
it. I think I will change my description to fit the picture.230890
You two aren't the only ones that love it.
Though I'm sorry, but it's hard for me to look hard at the left image because the pic on the right makes me laugh so hard. I'm trying not to get kicked out of this lab.
Ok I'm calm again. Wonderful sig there.
Geb2005-12-01 16:43:38
QUOTE(daganev @ Dec 1 2005, 12:17 PM)
*sigh*Â No appreciation for alternative intrests and insights into life through suffering.
Use slightly different words with the same literal meaning, and what you just described is Zen Budhism. Whats so evil about Zen Budhism? Pleasure through pain, power through restraint, control through non-action. Ultimate belief in nothingness. The need to feed and the terrible deformation that gluttony produces and the power that comes from such desires which need to be harnessed and controled save they go wild.
Use slightly different words with the same literal meaning, and what you just described is Zen Budhism. Whats so evil about Zen Budhism? Pleasure through pain, power through restraint, control through non-action. Ultimate belief in nothingness. The need to feed and the terrible deformation that gluttony produces and the power that comes from such desires which need to be harnessed and controled save they go wild.
230961
We were not talking about Zen Buddhism; we were discussing his assertion that the taint gives them a better appreciation of life. Go ask a Zen Buddhist if he has the same beliefs as a Nihilist. How about telling that same Buddhist that his belief system is similar to a person who worships agents of evil. You may feel they are the same with slight differences in words used, but I say that a slight change in wording can make a world of difference between two supposedly identical statements.
Cwin2005-12-01 17:17:45
Guys, mind bringing the "Is Magnagora evil" arguments to another thread? This thread is for admiring Joli's sig and welcoming her to her new home.
Aiakon2005-12-01 17:52:27
QUOTE(geb @ Dec 1 2005, 05:43 PM)
We were not talking about Zen Buddhism; we were discussing his assertion that the taint gives them a better appreciation of life.
231051
... it does.
And Joli - Nice sig! Welcome to Magnagora! *wink Cwin*
Unknown2005-12-01 17:57:01
QUOTE(geb @ Dec 1 2005, 06:43 PM)
We were not talking about Zen Buddhism; we were discussing his assertion that the taint gives them a better appreciation of life. Go ask a Zen Buddhist if he has the same beliefs as a Nihilist. How about telling that same Buddhist that is belief system is similar to a person who worships agents of evil. You may feel they are the same with slight differences in words used, but I say that a slight change in wording can make a world of difference between two supposedly identical statements.
231051
Last I heard Buddhism did not believe in good/evil, just moral values
Joli2005-12-01 21:35:36
Someone told me that Elcyrion was the new Buddha on msn a few days ago. 
They do really seem similar. Now all He needs is a big belly that we can rub for good luck.
And yes, I'm just joking.
Don't kill me please.
They do really seem similar. Now all He needs is a big belly that we can rub for good luck.
And yes, I'm just joking.
Don't kill me please.
Geb2005-12-01 23:36:49
QUOTE(Elcyrion @ Dec 1 2005, 06:57 PM)
Last I heard Buddhism did not believe in good/evil, just moral values
231088
You heard wrong evidently. Good and evil are concepts that are held within the Buddhist belief system. They are not viewed in exactly the same way as say the Christian belief system does, but that does not mean that they do not believe there is good and evil. They just understand that good and evil are not easily separated from each other, since all beings have both good and evil in them.
Unknown2005-12-02 07:35:14
Which would be moral values.
Unlike christianity, which preaches in hell and all that sort of things.
Unlike christianity, which preaches in hell and all that sort of things.
Narsrim2005-12-02 07:53:41
QUOTE(Elcyrion @ Dec 2 2005, 03:35 AM)
Which would be moral values.
Unlike christianity, which preaches in hell and all that sort of things.
Unlike christianity, which preaches in hell and all that sort of things.
231492
That's tricky. First, a moral and a value are different things. Depending on who is lecturing, you will get different definitions of each, however, my sociology text tends to learn toward a value being a principle such as honesty, integrity, etc. Morals are the application/action of values: Good people do not lie.
Whereas values are relatively constant, morals change in society. In the US (which is currently in a conservative swing), christian "morals" are about the only accepted morals by society at large.
Daganev2005-12-02 07:58:32
ummm, "moral values" is a term made up of two words that each have thier own meaning, but together they just mean that there are judgments made on values as being either a good thing to do or a not so good thing to do.
Believing in good and evil would mean that even a good value, if done by an evil person is an evil act, and such acts translate towards places that are not of this world.
Believing in good and evil would mean that even a good value, if done by an evil person is an evil act, and such acts translate towards places that are not of this world.
Unknown2005-12-02 08:09:10
QUOTE(Narsrim @ Dec 2 2005, 09:53 AM)
Whereas values are relatively constant, morals change in society. In the US (which is currently in a conservative swing), christian "morals" are about the only accepted morals by society at large.
231502
Are you quite sure you've read the bible? You'd be surprised how many values the bible describes that are -really- not accepted in present day society.
Even if you only look at the ten commandments it doesn't really work.
1. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..." - This commandment is to believe in the existence of God. (atheism anyone?)
2. "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..." (Time for a Jihad I think)
3. "You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord..." - This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain oath. In Exodus, the text reads "in a vain oath" (×œ× ×ª×©× ×ת ×©× ×”' לשו×), while in Deuteronomy it reads "in a false oath" (×œ× ×ª×©× ×©× ×”' לשקר).
(Goddamn anyone?)
4. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy mentions "Keep" rather than "Remember")(Well, guess I'd better prepare for hell)
5. "Honor your father and your mother..." - This commandment is a development when compared to other laws of the Ancient East (for example, the Code of Hammurabi) that do not call for equal respect of the father and the mother.(I do, does everyone? *snuggle estarra*)
6. "You shall not murder" - The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing. (Wow, one that is still accepted!)
7. "You shall not commit adultery" (two)
8. "You shall not steal" (sometimes interpreted as kidnapping, since there are other injunctions against stealing property in the Bible). (three)
9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"(dodgy, but for the sake of simplicity we'll state it as a moral value (four))
10. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house..." (in Exodus, the text reads "... neighbor's house, ... neighbor's wife, nor his manservant..." etc. while in Deuteronomy, "thy neighbor's wife, ... thy neighbor's house, his field" etc.)
(Jealousy is quite common I'm sure, and no one really cares about it much)
END SCORE: 4 out of 10
Narsrim2005-12-02 08:09:54
QUOTE(daganev @ Dec 2 2005, 03:58 AM)
ummm, "moral values" is a term made up of two words that each have thier own meaning, but together they just mean that there are judgments made on values as being either a good thing to do or a not so good thing to do.
 Believing in good and evil would mean that even a good value, if done by an evil person is an evil act, and such acts translate towards places that are not of this world.
 Believing in good and evil would mean that even a good value, if done by an evil person is an evil act, and such acts translate towards places that are not of this world.
231509
I think you missed my point:
The word "moral values" is shorthand way of saying "morals and values." My point was that "morals" and "values" are entirely different.
=====================================================
These are the definition I'm going by:
QUOTE
Values:
Values are needs/desires. These needs are not necessarily self-centered, and some of them might be abstract, e.g. liberty, egality, conformity, prosperity, etc. It is not appropriate to attempt to define how values interact in the definition of the individuals, nor is it appropriate to have highly complex values (e.g. a normal libertarian's idea of 'liberty' is a very complex concept that dishonestly incorporates other values into itself) -- the interactions and values are worked out in value systems, described below.
Morals:
Morals are types of values, interpreted as perscriptions, that one is willing to use or see force to inflict on others to advance. This force may be direct or indirect (e.g. by the state), but in every case, one approves of some level of coercion to enforce their morals.
Values are needs/desires. These needs are not necessarily self-centered, and some of them might be abstract, e.g. liberty, egality, conformity, prosperity, etc. It is not appropriate to attempt to define how values interact in the definition of the individuals, nor is it appropriate to have highly complex values (e.g. a normal libertarian's idea of 'liberty' is a very complex concept that dishonestly incorporates other values into itself) -- the interactions and values are worked out in value systems, described below.
Morals:
Morals are types of values, interpreted as perscriptions, that one is willing to use or see force to inflict on others to advance. This force may be direct or indirect (e.g. by the state), but in every case, one approves of some level of coercion to enforce their morals.
=====================================================
As such, if you are trying to decide if something is "good" or "bad," you are putting them into a perspective of a person, which makes it by definition a "moral" not a "moral value."
For example:
Value: Honesty
Moral: It is wrong/bad/evil to lie.
Narsrim2005-12-02 08:15:25
QUOTE(Elcyrion @ Dec 2 2005, 04:09 AM)
Are you quite sure you've read the bible? You'd be surprised how many values the bible describes that are -really- not accepted in present day society.
Even if you only look at the ten commandments it doesn't really work.
 1. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..." - This commandment is to believe in the existence of God. (atheism anyone?)
 2. "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..." (Time for a Jihad I think)
 3. "You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord..." - This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain oath. In Exodus, the text reads "in a vain oath" (×œ× ×ª×©× ×ת ×©× ×”' לשו×), while in Deuteronomy it reads "in a false oath" (×œ× ×ª×©× ×©× ×”' לשקר).
 (Goddamn anyone?)
4. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy mentions "Keep" rather than "Remember")(Well, guess I'd better prepare for hell)
 5. "Honor your father and your mother..." - This commandment is a development when compared to other laws of the Ancient East (for example, the Code of Hammurabi) that do not call for equal respect of the father and the mother.(I do, does everyone? *snuggle estarra*)
 6. "You shall not murder" - The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing (see Jewish interpretation below). (Wow, one that is still accepted!)
 7. "You shall not commit adultery" (two)
 8. "You shall not steal" (sometimes interpreted as kidnapping, since there are other injunctions against stealing property in the Bible). (three)
 9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"(dodgy, but for the sake of simplicity we'll state it as a moral value (four))
 10. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house..." (in Exodus, the text reads "... neighbor's house, ... neighbor's wife, nor his manservant..." etc. while in Deuteronomy, "thy neighbor's wife, ... thy neighbor's house, his field" etc.)
(Jealousy is quite common I'm sure, and no one really cares about it much)
END SCORE: 4 out of 10
Even if you only look at the ten commandments it doesn't really work.
 1. "I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt..." - This commandment is to believe in the existence of God. (atheism anyone?)
 2. "You shall have no other gods besides Me...Do not make a sculpted image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..." (Time for a Jihad I think)
 3. "You shalt not swear falsely by the name of the Lord..." - This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain oath. In Exodus, the text reads "in a vain oath" (×œ× ×ª×©× ×ת ×©× ×”' לשו×), while in Deuteronomy it reads "in a false oath" (×œ× ×ª×©× ×©× ×”' לשקר).
 (Goddamn anyone?)
4. "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" (the version in Deuteronomy mentions "Keep" rather than "Remember")(Well, guess I'd better prepare for hell)
 5. "Honor your father and your mother..." - This commandment is a development when compared to other laws of the Ancient East (for example, the Code of Hammurabi) that do not call for equal respect of the father and the mother.(I do, does everyone? *snuggle estarra*)
 6. "You shall not murder" - The Hebrew Bible makes a distinction between murdering and killing (see Jewish interpretation below). (Wow, one that is still accepted!)
 7. "You shall not commit adultery" (two)
 8. "You shall not steal" (sometimes interpreted as kidnapping, since there are other injunctions against stealing property in the Bible). (three)
 9. "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"(dodgy, but for the sake of simplicity we'll state it as a moral value (four))
 10. "You shall not covet your neighbor's house..." (in Exodus, the text reads "... neighbor's house, ... neighbor's wife, nor his manservant..." etc. while in Deuteronomy, "thy neighbor's wife, ... thy neighbor's house, his field" etc.)
(Jealousy is quite common I'm sure, and no one really cares about it much)
END SCORE: 4 out of 10
231513
I'm fully aware, which is why I'm not Christian because of the hyprocisy I find with the religion. However you will note in general that these morals are embedded within the US moral system. For example, we still consider extra martial affairs to be "bad."
It is important to realize that society does change and as it changes and evolves, accept morals change too. There used to be laws against adultery. In the my state, it is illegal for hunters to do so on Sunday because it is not keeping the Sabath holy (although this was recently challenged, it was decided that each county could impose its own restrictions), etc.
=====================================================
And finally, my ethics teacher always made a point of putting out that the the legal system is not a moral system. While you can see some cross-overs, they are far from the same.
Unknown2005-12-02 08:15:35
Moral values is a term by itself, often used in alfa-sciences to indicate those values that differ from person to person based on background, beliefs, history and similar things.
Do not start dissecting language, you'd be surprised how much things do not make the least amount of sense. If language would work that way, a lot more people would hold a PhD.
As for the morals stated above, some of them are embedded in the US system I do not doubt, just like some are embedded in the European systems. Yet, the bible states that stoning and death penalties are valid punishments, but nearly all countries in europe find this an inacceptable practice.
To put this in perspective, it would be the same as calling Christianity and Islam the same because they both believe in one god.
(Don't let anyone hear you say that)
Do not start dissecting language, you'd be surprised how much things do not make the least amount of sense. If language would work that way, a lot more people would hold a PhD.
As for the morals stated above, some of them are embedded in the US system I do not doubt, just like some are embedded in the European systems. Yet, the bible states that stoning and death penalties are valid punishments, but nearly all countries in europe find this an inacceptable practice.
To put this in perspective, it would be the same as calling Christianity and Islam the same because they both believe in one god.
(Don't let anyone hear you say that)
Narsrim2005-12-02 08:17:39
QUOTE(Elcyrion @ Dec 2 2005, 04:15 AM)
Moral values is a term by itself, often used in alfa-sciences to indicate those values that differ from person to person based on background, beliefs, history and similar things.
Do not start dissecting language, you'd be surprised how much things do not make the least amount of sense. If language would work that way, a lot more people would hold a PhD.
Do not start dissecting language, you'd be surprised how much things do not make the least amount of sense. If language would work that way, a lot more people would hold a PhD.
231518
What's the different between a "moral" and a "moral value" then?
Unknown2005-12-02 08:21:49
Moral value is a much broader term that encompasses anything that one might use as an opinion or argument to act in certain ways. Morals is not this broad, as you said, it does not emcompass values.
Also, I am not an alfa, for the exact scientific differences you're better off asking someone who holds a Master's degree.
Also, I am not an alfa, for the exact scientific differences you're better off asking someone who holds a Master's degree.
Narsrim2005-12-02 08:24:52
QUOTE(Elcyrion @ Dec 2 2005, 04:15 AM)
As for the morals stated above, some of them are embedded in the US system I do not doubt, just like some are embedded in the European systems. Yet, the bible states that stoning and death penalties are valid punishments, but nearly all countries in europe find this an inacceptable practice.
231518
Valid punishments has nothing to do with the moral itself.
For example, let's look at the seven deadly sins:
QUOTE
Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride
In the US, every single one of these is in conflict with an accepted value and considered "bad." As a result, the moral codes tells us, for example, that it is "wrong" to cheat on your wife and sleep with your 19 year old babysitter. While this may not be handled in the legal system, that has nothing to do with the moral. That has to do with the legal system.
Narsrim2005-12-02 08:29:05
QUOTE(Elcyrion @ Dec 2 2005, 04:21 AM)
Moral value is a much broader term that encompasses anything that one might use as an opinion or argument to act in certain ways. Morals is not this broad, as you said, it does not emcompass values.
Also, I am not an alfa, for the exact scientific differences you're better off asking someone who holds a Master's degree.
Also, I am not an alfa, for the exact scientific differences you're better off asking someone who holds a Master's degree.
231521
A moral is based off a value. However, the value is the principle by itself independent of interaction.
Value: Honesty
Moral: It is bad/wrong/evil to lie
=====================================================
What would the "moral value" be in this case? Anything that attempts to prescribe what is "good or bad" is by definition a moral... so I don't see how a "moral value" is any different... how much broader can you be?
Joli2005-12-02 08:49:29
Interesting how this thread turned around. (And no.. don't go back to what it was)
I'm too asleep to really think much, so hrm..
Around where I live if one even thinks about comparing religions you basicly have to be saying that Christianity is the best and everyone else is going to burn in hell or you will get major crap from most people, if not everyone. (I thought I got away from Celest, damn it)
I was never a big "southern" baptist. They always made me cry in church and our youth minister kept trying to use me for a teddy bear. (Which is very creepy now that I think about it...)
And such, I have invented my own religion called "Common Sense". This is where you think about what you do before you do it and if it seems like something bad to do.. you don't do it. Wow, what genious.
Having moral values and knowing what morals are is two very different things. Billy Bob might know smoking pot is bad, but when he sees Billy Jane do it.. he magiclly forgets that. It's just like my crackwhore friend, who will admit she is a crackwhore. She knows what she does is wrong, but she does not have the moral value to actually say, "No, This is bad and I'm not going to do it." This is also why she brags about being a convicted felon.
Your moral values are the way you view things, such as what you think is right/wrong/in between and how you handle being in situations that expose you to decisions like that.
Morals, to me, are just what the common norm is.
Everything I wrote might be wrong, but remember it is 3 in the morning where I am and I'm just kind of typing half-awake.
Now it is the bed for me. -nodme-
I'm too asleep to really think much, so hrm..
Around where I live if one even thinks about comparing religions you basicly have to be saying that Christianity is the best and everyone else is going to burn in hell or you will get major crap from most people, if not everyone. (I thought I got away from Celest, damn it)
I was never a big "southern" baptist. They always made me cry in church and our youth minister kept trying to use me for a teddy bear. (Which is very creepy now that I think about it...)
And such, I have invented my own religion called "Common Sense". This is where you think about what you do before you do it and if it seems like something bad to do.. you don't do it. Wow, what genious.
Having moral values and knowing what morals are is two very different things. Billy Bob might know smoking pot is bad, but when he sees Billy Jane do it.. he magiclly forgets that. It's just like my crackwhore friend, who will admit she is a crackwhore. She knows what she does is wrong, but she does not have the moral value to actually say, "No, This is bad and I'm not going to do it." This is also why she brags about being a convicted felon.
Your moral values are the way you view things, such as what you think is right/wrong/in between and how you handle being in situations that expose you to decisions like that.
Morals, to me, are just what the common norm is.
Everything I wrote might be wrong, but remember it is 3 in the morning where I am and I'm just kind of typing half-awake.
Now it is the bed for me. -nodme-
