Cwin2005-12-14 07:13:49
There is a slight IC reasoning for everyone not wanting to steal from each other: The Nuke effect. As our characters (and ourselves) have seen regularly, once something painful towards an enemy is done without compromise then soon both sides will do it regularly. IRL, this is why no one wants to fire off a Nuke at anyone anymore: Once one goes off it may be involved in every fight thereafter and no one wants that consequence.
As such, giving back an opponent's weapon isn't trying to 'play nice' as far as IC goes: It's keeping the war from turning into something you definatly don't want to get involved in.
OOCly, I've played a wanna-be thief in Aetolia and felt it a viable lifestyle there. Here, I think we need a more stabalising of the economy/trade (thus making loss easier to handle: right now Trade is hard enough to turn a profit in) before we can think of Theft as an acceptable medium.
As such, giving back an opponent's weapon isn't trying to 'play nice' as far as IC goes: It's keeping the war from turning into something you definatly don't want to get involved in.
OOCly, I've played a wanna-be thief in Aetolia and felt it a viable lifestyle there. Here, I think we need a more stabalising of the economy/trade (thus making loss easier to handle: right now Trade is hard enough to turn a profit in) before we can think of Theft as an acceptable medium.
Exarius2005-12-14 07:14:11
QUOTE
Dying = loss of experience.
There is an absolute cap on experience loss from death, regulated by the game.
People do not grow attached to experience points.
Anyone is theoretically capable of retaliating in kind against death.
Even most players who like commiting mayhem will hesitate to kill people they don't know.
There is an absolute cap on experience loss from death, regulated by the game.
People do not grow attached to experience points.
Anyone is theoretically capable of retaliating in kind against death.
Even most players who like commiting mayhem will hesitate to kill people they don't know.
QUOTE
Theft = loss of objects and/or gold.
There is no cap on the amount of gold that can be stolen. If you're unlucky enough to get caught with 500 K on your way to form a clan, you lose all 500 K.
People can grow very sentimental about objects.
Only those few characters geared toward thievery can retaliate against theft in kind.
Few thieves will think twice about stealing from anybody who crosses their paths.
There is no cap on the amount of gold that can be stolen. If you're unlucky enough to get caught with 500 K on your way to form a clan, you lose all 500 K.
People can grow very sentimental about objects.
Only those few characters geared toward thievery can retaliate against theft in kind.
Few thieves will think twice about stealing from anybody who crosses their paths.
Thievery is much, much worse. We hates thieves, my precious.
Richter2005-12-14 07:26:57
Shorlen2005-12-14 08:15:10
In response to the Moondancers and theft, yes, we allow it, and we are the only organization in the game that does, I believe. Am I happy about this OOC? Nope. But such policies are not my decision, as they involve matters outside of the guild. They're Tsuki and Asmodea's jurisdiction, or so I was told, and last I heard, the decision was that Moondancers are allowed to steal from guild enemies at will. Of course, noone does it, thankfully.
Shorlen, who loathes theft for perfectly good IC reasons (them being that it violates a third of the Moondancer guiding principles), has told Tsuki very clearly that if any Moondancer were to steal from someone else, Shorlen would pay that person back the value of what was stolen from his own pockets.
No, theft is not well liked in Lusternia. We deal with enough stress from the constant interorganizational conflicts that we all love so much that the added stress of theivery is unwarrented, unneeded, and unappreciated. Theivery just goes above and beyond what we are used to and what we consider acceptable levels of griefing.
Shorlen, who loathes theft for perfectly good IC reasons (them being that it violates a third of the Moondancer guiding principles), has told Tsuki very clearly that if any Moondancer were to steal from someone else, Shorlen would pay that person back the value of what was stolen from his own pockets.
No, theft is not well liked in Lusternia. We deal with enough stress from the constant interorganizational conflicts that we all love so much that the added stress of theivery is unwarrented, unneeded, and unappreciated. Theivery just goes above and beyond what we are used to and what we consider acceptable levels of griefing.
Unknown2005-12-14 09:40:17
Think of it this way, if you really want to steal, find an organisation that will let you do it, and go for it. However this isn't Achaea, you will be suprised how much pain the playerbase will put you through if you do steal, this isn't Achaea you don't get 30 days of open PK then come back out on the market to steal again. The consequences here are much harsher, and since most people disagree with it on an OOC level, you can bet your life that if their character finds out about it IC, you are in real trouble. Not to mention you can't phase over here, hun.
Ixion2005-12-14 09:47:58
QUOTE(Temporary_Guido @ Dec 13 2005, 10:21 PM)
Fain loved Yrael, if I remember correctly. One of his main tenants is greed, so I imagine his order would welcome a good thief, as long as that thief didn't steal from any of them.
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To clarify, greed is one, but greed != theft.
Unknown2005-12-14 09:53:22
Not allowing theft works for the Shadowdancers due to the RP reasons stated early on in the thread.
However, I disagree that theft is bad or griefing per se.
I'm perfectly happy with the Moondancers allowing theft, because it fits them, and I'm be very much against any IC blanket statement along the lines of "it sucks OOC so don't do it".
As long as thief characters don't go above and beyond to make people miserable and grief them, I think it'd make Lusternia more interesting to have them.
However, I disagree that theft is bad or griefing per se.
I'm perfectly happy with the Moondancers allowing theft, because it fits them, and I'm be very much against any IC blanket statement along the lines of "it sucks OOC so don't do it".
As long as thief characters don't go above and beyond to make people miserable and grief them, I think it'd make Lusternia more interesting to have them.
Laysus2005-12-14 12:00:58
QUOTE(Shorlen @ Dec 14 2005, 08:15 AM)
In response to the Moondancers and theft, yes, we allow it, and we are the only organization in the game that does, I believe. Am I happy about this OOC? Nope. But such policies are not my decision, as they involve matters outside of the guild. They're Tsuki and Asmodea's jurisdiction, or so I was told, and last I heard, the decision was that Moondancers are allowed to steal from guild enemies at will. Of course, noone does it, thankfully.
Shorlen, who loathes theft for perfectly good IC reasons (them being that it violates a third of the Moondancer guiding principles), has told Tsuki very clearly that if any Moondancer were to steal from someone else, Shorlen would pay that person back the value of what was stolen from his own pockets.
Shorlen, who loathes theft for perfectly good IC reasons (them being that it violates a third of the Moondancer guiding principles), has told Tsuki very clearly that if any Moondancer were to steal from someone else, Shorlen would pay that person back the value of what was stolen from his own pockets.
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Which is why we don't tell shorlen, and realise that the guiding principles dictate what we do among ourselves, not towards our enemies (with the exception of no being nice to them).
Shorlen2005-12-14 12:35:20
QUOTE(Laysus @ Dec 14 2005, 08:00 AM)
Which is why we don't tell shorlen, and realise that the guiding principles dictate what we do among ourselves, not towards our enemies (with the exception of no being nice to them).
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Serrin2005-12-14 13:16:26
QUOTE(Kharvik @ Dec 13 2005, 09:17 PM)
I dont see a problem with thieving. There are skills around that seem almost designed for such a thing. It's easy enough to protect against and adds for some thieving roleplay.. not everyone is full of love and good morals you know. Yeah being robbed would really suck, but once again you have triggers to help protect against that and if that's not enough you always have selfishness.
236311
Really, it's easy to avoid is it?
Maybe for someone whose been playing the game since beta and therefore knows pretty much everything about it.
What about someone whose only been playing for maybe a month? Is it so hard to believe that they've never come across any of the messages warning them that they're about to be robbed blind? Information like that hasn't actually been very forthecoming in this game.
So here you have someone whose played about a month that just had everything they'd worked for for the last MONTH stolen from them due to their ignorance, think they're going to keep playing?. Heck, they might have not even KNOWN theft was possible in-game. How many people read every-single-help-file?
Plus I come from a paranoid gaming background (shadowbane anyone?), where someone wouldn't have a problem with creating a new character for the express purpose of ripping one or two people off and then never playing that character again.
At least in shadowbane the only things you could lose where what you carried in your bag, not the armor/weapons you were using at the time as well.
Stealing really should just be removed from the game, or severly limited as it can be way too detrimental.
Shayle2005-12-14 13:25:30
QUOTE(Serrin @ Dec 14 2005, 08:16 AM)
Stealing really should just be removed from the game, or severly limited as it can be way too detrimental.
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Or it can just be monitored ICly, as it is now. It's been effective so far.
Richter2005-12-14 15:25:55
QUOTE(Serrin @ Dec 14 2005, 05:16 AM)
Really, it's easy to avoid is it?
Maybe for someone whose been playing the game since beta and therefore knows pretty much everything about it.
What about someone whose only been playing for maybe a month? Is it so hard to believe that they've never come across any of the messages warning them that they're about to be robbed blind? Information like that hasn't actually been very forthecoming in this game.
So here you have someone whose played about a month that just had everything they'd worked for for the last MONTH stolen from them due to their ignorance, think they're going to keep playing?. Heck, they might have not even KNOWN theft was possible in-game. How many people read every-single-help-file?
Plus I come from a paranoid gaming background (shadowbane anyone?), where someone wouldn't have a problem with creating a new character for the express purpose of ripping one or two people off and then never playing that character again.
At least in shadowbane the only things you could lose where what you carried in your bag, not the armor/weapons you were using at the time as well.
Stealing really should just be removed from the game, or severly limited as it can be way too detrimental.
Maybe for someone whose been playing the game since beta and therefore knows pretty much everything about it.
What about someone whose only been playing for maybe a month? Is it so hard to believe that they've never come across any of the messages warning them that they're about to be robbed blind? Information like that hasn't actually been very forthecoming in this game.
So here you have someone whose played about a month that just had everything they'd worked for for the last MONTH stolen from them due to their ignorance, think they're going to keep playing?. Heck, they might have not even KNOWN theft was possible in-game. How many people read every-single-help-file?
Plus I come from a paranoid gaming background (shadowbane anyone?), where someone wouldn't have a problem with creating a new character for the express purpose of ripping one or two people off and then never playing that character again.
At least in shadowbane the only things you could lose where what you carried in your bag, not the armor/weapons you were using at the time as well.
Stealing really should just be removed from the game, or severly limited as it can be way too detrimental.
236409
Heck, I had about 75% of my items jacked from me because I didn't have selfishness (and I had about 80% of my skills transed at the time), and I didn't think to heartstop. Granted, this was somewhat of an afflictions lock, with me giving out all of my stuff inadvertantly, but the intent was the same. If I didn't know all the ways to defend against that, newbies certainly aren't going to know.
Unknown2005-12-14 17:09:07
Teaching people to prevent getting robbed blind is not an issue, it's been done before many times and there are plenty of excellent scrolls on it.
Right now, theft is not being monitored, but it's inexistant due to no org except the Moondancers, who don't do it anyway, allowing it.
Getting caught in a lock that both prevents you from escaping and at the same time forces you to hand out your things simply a design flaw issue and can be fixed if needed. Either you're unable to move, too messed up to act, etc, or you're not. Paralysis should prevent any kind of forced physical movement, and that'd be the end of that.
And the bottom point, as with all things, is getting people to moderate themselves, excess is bad for any things. (And that is pretty much the only issue I really see with allowing theft, that people -probably- won't be able to moderate themselves.)
Right now, theft is not being monitored, but it's inexistant due to no org except the Moondancers, who don't do it anyway, allowing it.
Getting caught in a lock that both prevents you from escaping and at the same time forces you to hand out your things simply a design flaw issue and can be fixed if needed. Either you're unable to move, too messed up to act, etc, or you're not. Paralysis should prevent any kind of forced physical movement, and that'd be the end of that.
And the bottom point, as with all things, is getting people to moderate themselves, excess is bad for any things. (And that is pretty much the only issue I really see with allowing theft, that people -probably- won't be able to moderate themselves.)
Richter2005-12-14 17:27:15
QUOTE(David @ Dec 14 2005, 09:09 AM)
Paralysis should prevent any kind of forced physical movement, and that'd be the end of that.
236467
I forgot about that, it doesn't currently stop it, does it?
It's crazy how I cannot move while paralyzed, but I can have someone else make me move my paralyzed self.
Exarius2005-12-14 19:38:09
QUOTE(David @ Dec 14 2005, 12:09 PM)
And the bottom point, as with all things, is getting people to moderate themselves, excess is bad for any things. (And that is pretty much the only issue I really see with allowing theft, that people -probably- won't be able to moderate themselves.)
236467
There's no "probably" to it.
The anonymity of the internet ensures that people who want to be jerks will be jerks.
Arix2005-12-14 19:49:56
So when Yrael was going around robbing shops, what exactly was done to discourage that besides a slap on the wrist and a 'No no, naughty Yrael'?
Shorlen2005-12-14 20:24:44
QUOTE(Arix @ Dec 14 2005, 03:49 PM)
So when Yrael was going around robbing shops, what exactly was done to discourage that besides a slap on the wrist and a 'No no, naughty Yrael'?
236489
In the end, he was outguilded and kicked out of magnagora for it, wasn't he?
Unknown2005-12-15 03:31:34
QUOTE(Xavius @ Dec 13 2005, 10:11 PM)
Alright, I think poor Pawzik gets the point. It's time to introduce the girl to one more Lusternian tradition before we move on, though.
236294
Alright see now, if I could find a picture apprioately titled 'blah blah.' I'd put it here, but I can't. So, I'll just say it in Caps, to make it seem affective.
*Edited for language: Raez
Xavius2005-12-15 03:40:16
Oh, I've never denied it. Shayle makes the decisions in the family. I'm sorry you feel threatened by a functional relationship, though. You should get to know Shayle. I think you'd understand why most people willingly let her make any call she feels fit to.
Terenas2005-12-15 07:43:01
There are reasons why thievery works better in Achaea, namely because of all those PK rules, as well as the mark and hiring system and the fact that you can play a rogue to your heart's contents. Here the cities control access to the higher planes, the communes control the Ethereal Plane, the cities have monopolies on Enchantments and the communes monopolizes Alchemy (potions). Even if you can afford a cubix to easily traverse all the planes, you'll be hard-pressed to find enchantments and refills for your fighting needs.
All in all, there are a lot more restrictions on thieves and rogues here, both of which only serves to re-enforce the fact that the majority of the playerbase don't want it to become common.
All in all, there are a lot more restrictions on thieves and rogues here, both of which only serves to re-enforce the fact that the majority of the playerbase don't want it to become common.
