It was only hipotetical, i'm happy in Celest, its a lot of work still but i have found my place here. Sometimes i have enough of smartass in city but there isnt so many of them, i just can ignore them.

And i cant recall anyone who would say NO, but i'm sure there will be few in a city.

If we went by considering full loyalties by leaving an org and moving about, many many people would be considered unloyal.

edit: I was going to explain it, but I find I cant without contradicting myself

There's really no need to state the obvious here, Shadow. Of course we know that Lusternia is a game. That's where roleplaying comes in. Torak presented an example. That's it. I agree, somewhat.

I believe that guildhoppers destroy their own rep and disappoint other players in game. It has a negative impact on everyone. Once, twice- okay, fine. Four, five, ten times? It's excessive. I'd find it hard to trust that individual. You wouldn't believe how upset Malicia was to see Marsu hop from one guild to the other. He went through hell trying to get into the Serenwilde this last time. If he leaves again, it'd seriously bother me. Betraying a trust is uncool, you know?

Agreed.

There can always be reasons why a particular individual should not be let in even though on average you wouldn't mind.

Just because someone switched guilds five times doesn't mean he is being a pain to others, or that he cannot contribute.

Lomdomian is currently in his fifth guild, and while he usually doesn't make much of a difference and hasn't been overly active for a while, I don't think anyone has ever seriously complained OOCly. And even if they did, I do know for example that Narsrim would never let me back into the Serenwilde, or so he told me.

Malicia: Shadow's point was that people are often taking Lusternia too serious when dealing with org changers, Torak's example was an example of that. Regardless of whether the argument would be valid for IRL, it isn't for Lusternia, because it IS a game, and we play it because yes, blowing up people doesn't earn you a lifetime in jail there, no real harm is done usually and when joining a different organisation it is not really a breach in personality because most of us really aren't the lunatics we roleplay.

And, while I agree that it's not only the org changer's gaming experience to be considered, I do think that there should be the option for every player in Lusternia to decide to do a different thing without having to waste weeks and months worth of work put into their character's prowess.

While this is a very sensible approach in game, and serves to cull all but the most dedicated converts, in my ooc opinion this is also somewhat harsh for a game.

I think of Jasper as an example, leaving Glomdoring was certainly not easy on his player but he felt it was necessary to continue to enjoy Lusternia. In wanting to rejoin Serenwilde, he had to spend a fortune getting unenemied to Moon Spirit/Faethorn (or at least, our family had to spend a fortune), but then had to wait and wait to be considered for membership. He lost most of his skills, and spent months without any proper bashing abilities, waiting for one of our Patrons and others to concede to his request, and just to -begin- the 5 month referendum. I don't even know if he's been able to join yet.

That sounds fine in hard roleplaying theory, but as a player, I would absolutely hate to have to spend real life weeks with my character forcably set at the level of a newbie, writing essays and doing menial tasks just so that I -might- have a chance of joining an organization that I've already made a host of enemies in leaving for. Sure, this is a roleplay-intensive world, but if that roleplay isn't in itself fun, I'm not sticking around.

I agree with you, Aesyra, too many hurdles in RP'ing a change is a very bad thing.

Edit: Also, don't forget that joining a guild already has a coded 'wait' period on top of anything players add.

Jasper has never once approached Shorlen about rejoining the Serenwilde or the Moondancers. I was planning on being considerate of such, and helping him return, but I can't if I'm not involved I guess he was speaking to Tsuki about it or something?

Its not RL, but it's a roleplaying game. You are expected to act like a real person inside the game.

Yeah, and Brylle and Alnra (I think!) was arranging a ritual so that the Moondancer guild would be able to unenemy him.

I wasn't trying to blame anyone, I think a combination of factors has made things difficult, but I would have given up long ago if I'd gone through what he has. I just meant to use that as an example of how even relatively efficient (subjective) review processes can be very demanding on players.

That's what I was saying, Verithrax. I also agree with Avaer. Forcing players to jump through extreme hurdles can be upsetting, but excessive guildhoppers bring it on themselves. In Jasper's case, this doesn't apply. He hasn't been around the world. Whee, here comes an IRL example- I wouldn't hire someone, spend time training them, equipping them, just to watch them leave after a week or so. It hurts -everyone-.

Personally. I don't see a thing wrong with the simple practice of going from organization to organization.

What I have issues with is entering an organization, making a empty, over-the-top shows of loyalty to it, then conveniently forgetting all the massive promises of dedication and devotion whenever you decide you might like it better someplace else.

The problem arises in the combination of IRE games being designed to encourage membership in organizations, and those organizations in turn encouraging -- if not blatantly demanding -- empty, over-the-top shows of loyalty in order to participate in them, much less advance in them.

So regardless of the facts, each time someone jumps ship in an IRE game, the default assumption is that he's both a traitor and an oath breaker.

Exarius, meanwhile, has spent over a RL year now in the guild and commune he started in, always quietly giving back more than he takes, with little to no notice of it (guild rank 3, commune rank 1), yet has somehow managed to never make a formal pledge of loyalty or acknowledge any sort of debt to guild or commune, and he bristles every time someone suggests he ought to.

When the players stop pressuring each other ot make empty promises, perhaps then "guild-hopping" will lose its stigma.

Thing is, when a nobody (with this I mean random novice or gr1, who never got involved in things in the guild) changed guild, then nobody notices, at most he'll be enemied for going to the opposite faction, but maybe not even that.

When somebody who theoretically was 100% for the guild, was informed on what was going on inside, knew theoretical secrets that could harm the guild, etc... switches to the other side of the world, people get upset. With RP reason to leave or not, I understand the former guild demanding their heads for treason. I mean, what would happen if Daevos moved to Celest now? I am sure he has a lot of info on the inner Magnagora that Celest could use and Magnagora wouldn't like disclosed.

When somebody enters and leaves guilds after pledging loyalty like a mad fanatic, to go swearing for his soul that he'll be truthful to the opposite organization, well, that doesn't give him much credibility on my eyes.
It might be a game, but when RP is enforced you need to come with a very good reason to give a 360º degrees to your career. And that's credible once, maybe twice (I was mistaken first time I switched guild kind of thing) but there's people who have been in all the organizations in Lusternian and probably would be in Deepnight if they had a skillset.

That people are the ones my char finds only worth to be mercenaries, and the person behind my char thinks so many changes of mind look horrible OOC.

I think that switching orgs is something that has to be roleplayed slowly. You don't just snap and switch guilds, you slowly become disilusioned with your guild and city until you finally snap and switch guilds.