And while we are at it remove passive stun from demesnes especially ones that go through protection scrolls

As much as I'd love to have a defense against sap, lowering the power cost would mean a Druid can keep using it until it sticks, which in the long run equals the same effects anyway.

Personally, I'd love to be able to rub a brooch to cleanse while proned (but not entangled) and with at least one functional arm. So you'll still have to focus body and writhe free, but at least you have a chance to cure sap more. And again, making sap 5 power made it incredibly overpowered, especially with how demesnes can be so easily timed.

If it's more than 5 power, if you can cure it once, the druid really has no way to kill you until they regain their power. When it was 8, your whole fight was basically finding that one moment that Sap would stick, and going all in with your power. If it didn't, you were out of most options for a while.

What's the power cost on a mugwump's moondance waning? Has anyone tested to see if aslaran aeon tarot outpaces quicksilver, too?

And what's with the idea that sap is something difficult to cure? Any sap healing delays require 1) the victim to have no idea what hills smudge is, 2) a non-faeling warrior who doesn't carry a diminish enchantment to be entangled exactly three seconds before the demesne hits, then scramble up into the trees to sap before the demesne pulls the target up, or 3) a setup similar to number two with a mistake or two made by the victim.

If you stick anorexia/asthma on the target..

Which brings us to another point....Guardians can lock someone into aeon because of their afflicting speed. Sap is only a minor softlock, only thing that prevents curing it is paralysis which ony swarm can give. For example, Thorgals system cures sap in a full demesne after 2 seconds while still catching all afflictions. I'd say that's PRETTY good.

Everyone can outpace quicksilver with active aeon, it's like 6 seconds delay.

So, let's summarize what we've learned so far.

1) Cudgel, in comparison to staff, is fairly minor damage. Cudgel kills with bleeding.

2) Since bleeding is readily handled by a skill with no balance, the two options for a Hartstone to kill (exceptions will be made for Blacktalon in the near future, I'm sure) are sap and running the victim completely out of mana. Note that guardians drain mana faster and only need half mana to kill.

3) Sap is not unlike aeon in terms of its hindering power.

4) There are defenses against both sap and aeon. The defenses on aeon simply happen to be easier to maintain. In exchange, sap was given a power cost.

When I get back this afternoon, I'm going to grab someone with neutral balance/eq to see if the aeon skills naturally outpace quicksilver. Depending on the outcome of that, we're going to add

5a.) Mugwumps, the most popular choice for a combat-oriented wiccan, can simply cast moondance waning twice to accomplish the same thing as sap. Warriors of any race can do the same with raze/waning.

-or-

5b.) All aeon skills can outpace the quicksilver defense without a power cost, thus making sap the inferior alternative.

If it turns out to be 5b, you can rest assured that I'm chasing down Moon in my envoy report.

Like I said, quicksilver has a delay of 6 seconds. Even Tae'dae could probably aeon second time before it's up.

Thing is, quicksilver doesn't protect from sap (I'm not sure of that but I can't imagine it being any other way).

The protection against sap is staying out of the trees. Easier said than done most of the time, and I acknowledge this. The balance is the power cost.

Well, the idea of quicksilver is that you use it to realize they're about the Aeon, then attempt to stop them until quicksilver returns: either with hindering, a nasty attack or simply shielding.

Sap doesn't have a set up, so it catches every time.

There are a couple of differences between Aeon and Sap that makes Sap a bit more difficult to deal with than Aeon. Aeon only requires the person to be able to eat to cure it. Sap requires the person to be unhindered in anyway to cure it (no broken limbs, not paralyzed, not entangled, not prone, not off-balance or off-equilibrium). Curing Aeon does not cause a person to then be off-balance or off-equilibrium. Curing sap via scrubbing or cleanse will cause a person to be in a state mentioned in the previous sentence. Aeon will only last for a time period if not cured. Sap does not seem to have a limited duration of effect.

Yeah, but as Xavius said...there's a reason that sap costs 5 power. Everything more, and it would be just a game of luck for a druid to be able to kill.

Give me other abilities I can use to kill someone, and I'll never use sap anymore.

Anyone's system could cure sap in two seconds. What you mean when you say Thorgal's system cures sap in a full demesne after 2 seconds is 'Thorgal's system can cure sap in a full demesne in 2 seconds if not afflicted by anything over paralysed.' It is easy to keep someone permanently sapped because of the number of things which stop cleanse.

If you want those other abilities, then request that sap be removed while asking for them. Also, my response to him was to correct what he stated about paralysis being the only thing that hinders the curing of sap.

Xavius-

3) Sap is not unlike aeon in terms of its hindering power.

No kidding. Except it is far far far harder to cure.

4) There are defenses against both sap and aeon. The defenses on aeon simply happen to be easier to maintain. In exchange, sap was given a power cost.

You are truly mistaken if you think a power cost is a defense against it. A defense is something -I- can do to stop or prevent something done to me. Your power cost has nothing to do with how I defend my self.

When I get back this afternoon, I'm going to grab someone with neutral balance/eq to see if the aeon skills naturally outpace quicksilver. Depending on the outcome of that, we're going to add

Of course it naturally outpaces aeon. Anyone that has ever fought against a Guardian with it will know. Aeon and Waning both are on average 4 seconds, with quicksilver defense coming up every 6 seconds, it is always possible to aeon someone if you cast it twice in a row, unless you are hindered in between.

5a.) Mugwumps, the most popular choice for a combat-oriented wiccan, can simply cast moondance waning twice to accomplish the same thing as sap. Warriors of any race can do the same with raze/waning.

Again, you are mistaken, horribly. Aeon like Geb says is far easier to cure, far easier to manage against, and guess what, it fades on its own.

-or-

5b.) All aeon skills can outpace the quicksilver defense without a power cost, thus making sap the inferior alternative.

All aeon skills already outpace quicksilver without a power cost. Sap will always be a superior alternative because its cure has many more restrictions.

If it turns out to be 5b, you can rest assured that I'm chasing down Moon in my envoy report.

You do that, I'd prefer aeon over sap any day. Go research your own skills before you post, it makes for a stronger argument than this is what I think my skills do.

Only seren warriors have this option.

Yeah, and it's so hard to get out of, especially since we can give anorexia..wait, no we can't.

The only effective way that makes waning even viable for a Serenguard is if we got slit throat/slickness, then followed up with waning and paralysis. Most of the time it is not worth using because we have no other skills to back it up. It's like a Paladin or ur'Guard draining mana with Amissio, without absolve to back it up, it's just not that useful.

I really love how Warriors have attacks that go through all defenses, chance to deliver posions with each attack, always deal damage + Wounds forcing a person to heal one or the other, get wound afflictions, which if prepped right can cause softlocks or hardlocks on people one of which needing a 2 power skill to cure or you are dead, but when a few warriors suddenly can't cure Sap, druids have an overpowered ability.

There are setups in every guild that if done right mean instant death, and some of them are far easier to pull off than others. If you want sap gone, I want my demesne doing 1200 passive damage, stun, and my cudgel having a damage type that doesn't have 20 defenses to reduce it.

I'd take a 2k damage cudgel and a 1200 passive demesne over sap and lame bleeding than no BM can match per unit time ANY day of the week, and twice on Sunday.