All hail the useless sap then...

Runes is painful to balance because differing archetypes can have it. Why not look at splitting runes into specialities - like ecology/tracking - so you can come up with skills for the mage/druid archetypes that isn't overpowered for the other?

Another thing: runes is a 'traditional' affliction mechanism. Dreamweaving/ecology are shiny, new and much more nasty if you don't keep up with curing. This seems to be common in Lusternia; all the original skillsets are simple to deal with, all the later skillsets guarantee death if you miss a cure or two.

So like many things, mages simply need a secondary curing in their system. If brokenarm=true, rub the cleanse enchantment.

Now broken arms... the only people who can easily break arms in the hartstone are ecologists, and that is so long as the person doesn't shrug. Treebane breaks legs, unless pulling in a flyer, then it will break arms. Stagstomp breaks legs only.

-EDITED Cause I used legs and meant arms-
Dreamweavers can't break arms, Runists can't break arms, Ecologists can fetish Dendroxin.

So Sap is arguably not overpowered, because anyone with tumble can roll, heal, roll, heal, cleanse.

Just for the record I have never died from being sapped. I have died from lunges, assaults, sweeps, cleaves, bad curing, slitthroat/senso, hex locks, choke/trample, crucify/trample/sacrifice... Never from being sapped.. and I have been sapped.

EDIT:: And I have been sapped without a cleanse enchantment.. tumble tumble tumble.. yay river! Scrub!.. Happened in Faethorn conflicts -alot-

Ditto. Never died to sap here and I've been sapped by Ashteru and a countless few other blacktalon

Last time I fought Munsia she sapped me like 4 times, and each time I actually just -walked- to the river and scrubbed without any problems. That was with neither of us using a demesne. With it, it'd be a lot harder (and she's better now), but now I have Roll and own a cleanse enchant, so it probably evens out.

Countless few?

Munsia uses sap alot. No good Druid combatant ignores using Sap when needed.

Low - mid range people sap is a last resort.
High - top end people sap is a neccessity.

Actually, Thaemorn used sap a lot on me when I fought him before I had the soap. I guess he was perhaps the only druid who understood the restrictions on curing sap, since he definitely used it on mages to good effect.

Yes, sapping me is just a waste of time now. Even before I got the soap, I learned how to deal with it thanks to Thaemorn and Dreamweaving. After getting my butt kicked two times by Thaemorn, I eventually figured out how to get out of it even with Blackout, Narcolepsy, Daydreaming, Epilepsy, Sleepmist, and Deepsleep being used on me; and there were no effects going that would automatically wake me up. I even eventually started getting the upper hand against him in his own demesne and defeated him the last time we went at it (In which he did use double sap, and I healed out of it).

Gregori, I'm going to post a log of me against Munsia in the last FFA where she used sap one time and still almost killed me many times. Druids are damn viable without sap already. You -do not- need Sap or other upgrades.

Well I just tumbled away from Munsia, while sapped, entangled, paralysed, broken legs. Sap is hardly overpowered if you know how to respond to it. Unlike say an attack that can be whored through every defense multiple times

Do you think the warriors like Lunge and its equivalents going through all defenses? No, as a matter of fact, on both of the last ur'Guard and Serenguard Envoy Reports, we specifically asked for them to stop going through shield and prismatic barrier.

And you are very wrong that it goes through all defenses, I've had people dodged my lunges before, and some people have reported two assaults/sweeps getting dodged completely. So actually, there are defenses against them, which is available to everyone.

I am a bit lost at the arms and legs thing... Anyway, isn't there an enchantment that can be used to break limbs?

As for tumble/heal, it's much harder for larger race. I tumble like 3 seconds normally at size 15.

I seriously hope that log you posted isn't your testament to the power of Druids.

First off she barely managed to drop you below half your health. Second of all I am assuming from the lack of mana you had and the health you had, you chose to Surge in a Druid demense, this is always known as a BAD thing. Third of all, you allowed yourself to get over 1k bleeding by not clotting, and by not getting out of the room when you saw yourself bleeding that much so you could deal with it. You eventually dealt with it, and were perfectly fine once again.

Using your bad technique as an example for Druids being strong, isn't an arguement. My bad fighting skills don't make you a powerful fighter, and your bad fighting skills don't make me a powerful fighter. Now overall, you should know I respect you as a top fighter, I have not met a warrior that I would class as on par with your ability to so easily master the style. However, you had bad technique in a druid demesne, and even with that, she didn't come close to killing you, other than you allowing your bleeding to get so high.

I tumble at 4 seconds at size 11, so there must be a discrepency somewhere.

I roll in one second, and recover balance a second after that, at size 6.

Althought I've only whored it once, really, and that was because I sparred a knight and didn't have regeneration, and got legtendoned. Still died when he caught me, because I forgot to use my macro and was typing.

My answer to what you suggested is no. Sap is not impossible to cure and it does not require any changes to it. People just need to learn to deal with it. Add the fact that a person can rub a cleansing enchantment with broken arms makes the affliction less tiresome than I thought. If I had known that, I would have carried a cleanse enchantment around with me instead of casting it.

In my attempt to read through this thread (which was rather amusing), I run onto another one of your fabled posts, which are starting to irk me to no avail.

Why is it that everytime, I swear to god, everytime you have ANY ability that is beyond mediocre, you feel the need to downgrade it if someone complains? We have before us a log of Ixion poorly (read: poorly) attempting to cure sap. How is that in any shape or form justification to make something less effective?

I henceforth declare you the "Nerf Nazi."

/rant

I only sapped you twice since I am Blacktalon. And that was out of my demesne.