Completely and patently untrue. The histories are built upon war, death, and savagery as evil acts. When Old Celest was destroyed, none of those people were respun by the Fates. When the Elder Gods were consumed by the Soulless or otherwise destroyed, none of them are respun by the Fates. In fact, never once in the histories do we see a single person woven back to life by the Fates. Death, murder, and bloodthirst are indeed Lusternian themes that echo real life, contrary to your claim.

Therefore, given that throughout the entire history of Lusternia (since Creation), we see no examples of people being respun by the Fates until 100 ACE and later, we can assume (suspending our belief for a moment) that being respun is an uncommon and rare occurance. The conversation of the Fates is also indicitive of the rarity of the act, presuming of course that Atropos doesn't complain idly whilst her sisters slap her around and reweave everything that dies over her objections.

My personal belief has always been that the Lusternian player characters are woven into a destiny (judging again by the Fates' conversation), only that by stepping through the Portal of Fate we have gained some measure of self-control over that destiny (a greater level of free will). However, that destiny still exists per their conversation when praying, and once it has been completed they will have no reason to re-weave one's thread into their tapestry - your time is over. Now, presuming that we cannot know our own destiny (to any degree of accuracy), since I have seen no reason to suggest that we can, one can never know when one's destiny has been fulfilled. It might be in the simplest of acts - you just don't know. Hence, with each death comes the possibility of actually dying.

The aslaran are an entire community, the krokani are a cult (they do not associate with Paavik) and are thus an entire community. This is not about wether killing Merian's is evil, it's about you saying that those that do kill Merians, especially Celestians, have bad RP, and this is entirely untrue.

Sparing women is an entirely sexist (and thus immoral) thing to do. If a real life soldier is stupid enough to spare my life in the battle field, I'll kill them. Women can be soldiers, and many are.

Children can indeed be discussed wether it's evil or not. But in many wars Children also fight (any of you seen Enemy at the gates. Child spies?) and are thus not per default innocent.

And you assume these people do not have remorse. Anisu is a very warped person in game, She went from poor innocent, pacifist Anisu that left the portals to an insane, war mongering, backstabbing bitch. Yet when Ialie adressed Anisu on the merians, she went to her manse to cry.

So my point remains you don't have ANY right to say those that kill merians have a bad RP, cause I know for certain you never tried to talk to alot of these characters ingame about it.

And I still remain with my point that the merian issue is an IC Celest thing and if you want it changed, you can go Celestian and try to convince the starcouncil in putting it on the banned list.

Though if it was their time to die there, doesn't that mean that they wouldn't of come back, seeing as it was already woven or to be woven that they were going to die. We as the players, when we die, it isn't our time, that's why we're rewoven back in, while those in the histories, it might have been, well would have been their time to die, which is why they arn't brought back.

Anisu... Have you even been reading my posts? I'm not saying that EVERYONE who kills merians is roleplaying poorly. I'm saying that people who do it exclusively for gold and experience, without giving RP a second thought, are roleplaying poorly. And I'm also not talking about morality here (I SAID THAT FIVE FRICKING TIMES); I'm talking about OOC issues and I'm going to discuss them OOCly. I'm talking about how SOME people (Not even a majority of people) don't consider RP when they're acting to get gold and experience. It's okay for Gregori or Anisu to hunt merians, but that doesn't mean it matches EVERYONE's RP. I just hate people seeing denizens as exp on legs and pretending death isn't something important in Lusternia. It is; a lot of the dramatic tension both in-game and in the histories revolves around death. The entire notion of necromancy and becoming undead depends on death being permanent most of the time for most of the people. Some people take OOC convenience and suspension of disbelief too far in order to justify poor RP: "Oh, he won't mind if I kill him, he'll just get respun by the Fates". Sorry, but I don't buy that.

EDIT: And I'm not trying to change Celest's RP - OOCly, I couldn't care less if they turn into a city of evil corrupt bastards or into candyland. I'm just annoyed that some people in Celest ( And everywhere else) don't actually follow any roleplay, organizational or otherwise.

You still don't get it, these people might have an RP, it's acceptable RP to think the fates always respin your life. Heck there is enough bases to think this as everyone of the portal gets respun. This does not make it true, but you can believe this ingame just like others may think not cutting a life is a rare thing. Verithrax you show little respect for other people's RP by saying oh I think thats sucky RP cause I don't like it OOC. You don't seem to get that people can take the insane viewpoints from an IC point of view and still be RPing. It's also an entirely accepteble RP to say 'I'm a raging psychopath and I'll kill anything to gain strenght (ooc levels) and see merians as practice dummies'. It's not because it's an easier RP that it is not a good RP.

Aslong as the person doesn't say in game 'I kill them to gain levels' but for example says 'I kill them to become stronger, I kill them to become rich' it's RP.

And lets face all those that hunt merians, aslaran, krokani, Astral, Catacombs, etc. do it for experience, we just form some RP to cover it. Claiming anything else is lying.

OOCly the only issue I see is your arrogance.

I agree with Veri's viewpoint, that is why Peeka doesn't go on 'bashing' trips and rarely kills things, unless it's chickens for comm quests or something like that. However - I also understand that, while the various areas are constantly under attack by characters, it's really not practical to expect the major way of gaining experience to not be utilized by most players. Perhaps things will change as new areas are discovered, with more denziens that seem to have some clear focus other than just being there that will give people reasons to kill them, or not.

Let me just conclude: Nothing wrong with bashing. As long as you admit you're killing people, and not sending them for a quick visit to the Fates. The game simply loses a lot of its immersion and tension when people start treating death as a minor inconvenience. Of course, you CAN create a character that is bat**** insane and thinks everyone gets respun all the time, but to me that's just being lazy and not wanting to cope with your character's actions.

So what you're saying is that when I actually saw all those thousands of people always coming back after death, I should still believe they won't this time despite all my life's experience. Otherwise I'm a crappy roleplayer. Got it.

Its never quite that simple of course, but essentially, Yes.

Why?
Because there is a choice in how you choose to interpret game mechanics.

You can choose either to gloss over them, pretend they don't exist, and that the rules of the real world apply. i.e. I kill someone, they die. Permanantly. And then make up some excuse (never too thoroughly examined) as to why they appear again. e.g. mobiles - they are different people / beasts, or for players that their thread was spared at the last instant.

Or, you can choose to play to the mechanics. i.e. in this world people do not die, they are merely sent temporarily to the fates. You know that they will return, and can play you charater according to that knowledge.

In general, roleplayers will, gravitate to the first of these, whereas fighters will naturally tend to the second view (since they have to deal with -exactly- how the game system works).

Neither of these approaches are inherently wrong, especially in a game where roleplay is encouraged rather than compulsory. But they will give a completely different feel to the game in which you play.

The first, I believe, offers a deeper and more realistic world where real world emotions can, and do, apply in-game.

The second, leads to a world that feels like the game system it is. i.e. a world that feels like it is a game - where you can kill whatever you like for no consequence because, after all, its just a game.

I tend to the first view. And therefore, yes. If you believe that it is OK to kill those thousands of people, just because they always came back before, then yes, I do believe your roleplaying is lacking.

Since real world examples seems to be the normal arguement, let me apply one or two.

If everytime I touch something hot I burn myself, I learn through experience that hot things burn you.

If everytime I walk outside in the rain I get wet, I learn that rain makes you wet.

Now let's apply this to Lusternia.

If everytime I die I come back due to the Fates granting me another chance, I learn that I will always come back if I die.

If everytime my friends come back when they die, I learn that my friends will always come back when they die.

If everytime I kill something and it comes back a little while later, I learn that EVERYTHING will always come back.

In sum, I learn that death has no meaning. This is not an OOC concept, this is an IC belief that is perfectly valid and one that is taught by experience.

There is no secret baby making factory under the Merian Island, Krokani do not sprout from secret cabbage patches, Aslaran are not repopulated by overworked storks. It is prefectly valid RP to believe that their time was cut short just as my time was cut short and that they return like everyone else I have seen since I walked out of the portal of fates. (note that the implied tone was in reference to what my character would believe, not myself)

And none of this precludes the idea that those threads are eventually going to be cut. I think the common denominator in all of this is the Portal. Things that go through the Portal gain their own free will, which, more often than not, messes up the Fates' plans. Through experience, we can say that the things I kill are probably not supposed to be dead yet. And also, through experience, I do a lot more stupid stuff than Meleris, so when I die, it's probably not time yet.

Well, for me, it's not about how to explain their coming back.

It's about the decision to kill them in the first place.

I just cannot see Peeka, a little 12inch high faeling, who is a pretty passive person under normal circumstances, wearing a dress, robes, and jewelry, hacking away at things with her sickle all day and still looking fresh and happy at a moments notice when needed. Just, no. It's not who she is, to attack creatures day after day, regardless of the meaning of death or lack thereof.

That's a perfectly viable RP. Nothing wrong with that at all. I am just pointing out that, just because some of us use them as XP farms, because let's face it that is what they are, does not mean that our Characters can't buy into, with very valid reasoning, that death is not a final solution in Lusternia.


Holy run on sentence...

Let's examine some of your assumptions. First you're assuming that the anonymous merians and krokani that are coming back are the same you killed ten minutes ago. Not necessarily, probably not. Second, you're assuming that if you kill all the merians in the isles you'd erradicate their population, so they're all coming back. The problem with that argument is, there are several hundred merians living in the isles, probably more. The ones you see as actual mobs are a small sample. They're reproducing and living their lives normally. This is because of OOC necessity; there simply are no system resources to represent every living animal, plant, and person in the world as an object. Do you think that there are only 20 sandojins in the Skarch? Do you think Serenwilde only has 10 stags? If there's only three centaur colts in Serenwilde, where the hell are those centaur hunters coming from? If there's a small limited amount of Fae in Faethorn, how come one always comes when a wiccan calls? Not everything that is alive in Lusternia is represented by a mob. So, yes, the unnamed denizens reproduce and get replaced, they don't come back. Besides, the thing is, all the unnamed denizens are fairly nondescripts; how can you know if they're coming back or not? You want to use them as XP farms (Which isn't the only reason they exists) then fine. At least try to roleplay the fact that you're killing people, not sending them to visit the fates for five minutes.

When someone kills marinus he comes back, when someone kills Gognigin he comes back. ICly there is no difference between an unnamed denizen and a named one. the names are an OOC convenience for us to know which one is the quest mob. Thus when Gregori sees marinus come back no matter howmany times he kills them, he is OOCly free to generalise this to the unnamed denizens. And I really hate it when people call them unnamed denizens ICly, I mean everyone normally has a name even 'a merian bravo' and a 'female krokani' have names IC wise.

And razorvine, your post seems to say you are either a fighter or an RPer, this is not true at all, and you are insulting some of the top RPers of the game who are also fighters. RP in Lusternia IS compulsory by the way, that is why admins dock roleplay points if you go to ooc.

At this point I'm just going to wait for a god to tell us wether the unnamed denizens are supposed to be different people, or just respawning people.

Exactly, you just don't know it because he's an unimportant, common person. He could actually introduce himself anytime (would divine possess him).

Not at all. I'm saying there is a choice in how you view the world. I feel that people with Pnp roleplay experience will likely gravitate one way, and those that play to fight will likely gravitate the other. There will of course be exceptions.

Gregori's post above is a great example of playing to the mechanic. I happen to think that to much of this devalues the world.

Oh, and role-play is not compulsory. The admins do not dock roleplay points if you go out of character (too subjective). Though they may if you make an out of game reference.

Actually, I think this is an interesting topic, How much real-world assumption vs. how much mechanic of the game. But I'm not sure whether a full discussion of this really belongs here.

Actually, i'm fairly sure a divine has said in the past that the unamed denizens are in fact different people, not the same merians being recycled to die over and over by the Fates.

Shiri-bot, I choose you! Go find that post!

Hmm, I've been looking for a good hour or so and I can't find anything, even though I'm fairly sure I remember something about that too (although not necessarily from any divine).