There are always useless skills in guild skills, I don't see why Necromancy has to have such special considerations, aside from the fact that those with Necromancy tends to whine about how useless their skills are.

What the hell, take a look at Night Totem, it has a lot of craptacular skills. Do you see people with Night totem whine as much as those with Necromancy?

Working on trying to fix it in envoys first, Terenas.

Whine? I see no whining here aside from you about lichdom, it was a thread inspired by a convo over DoK about which is better.

Xenthos, I don't see why you're trying to argue Vitae is so useful when every single Necromancer puts up Lich, even those that don't fight or raid. Why don't you go and convince them that they should stop putting it up and use Vitae instead? The day that I see no Necromancers use Lich is the day I agree with you Lichdom isn't 'all that'.

Again, my point deals directly with people with Lich that actively engage in combat and raids, it doesn't really concern those without. How many non-combatants do you see constantly whine about Necromancy being useless? I don't see much, compared to the number of combatants that are always whining about Crucify, or Contagion being downgraded.




No, you're right, Shiro never whines about his own skills, even in his poll that starts off completely bias by listing 4 of Necromancy's skills, and the rest later, some of which he doesn't even know how they actually work.

We all know Shiro doesn't count, and there is the reason there is a reply button - to discuss. Also, I don't see what all this conversation about lich being amazing or not as amazing as some think is about - no one said lich isn't good, and if they did they need to be slapped; there is downsides to the upsides, that is all. Anyone who thinks different isn't really looking at it. We all know 1) Lich gives you a chance to run 2) Lich doesn't give suspect 3) Eye sigils can screw someone with lich up over 4) transmig is better than lich (so what? This doesn't make lich a bad skill) 5) It isn't overpowered, but it doesn't make up for alot of lacking skills in necromancy. Yes all skillsets have useless abilities, that is common. 6) Terenas sucks - end of story.

How mean.


Anyhow, I see no problems with lich. Yes, transmigration is definitely better and should be changed- Same plane with bonded animal.

I voted that necromancy was better than sacraments. Murphy, Morik makes a good point. 12 power to finally pull off inquisition leaves a paladin with normal attacks to work with, struggling to get around good parrying/stances/aura.

And since we're whining, Stag still sucks!

I just might have to try that, Terenas. I already said that I'm not exactly sure why the non-heavy combatants do it-- it is very useful for getting away from denizens if you die to them, but I'm more talking about their use in PvP. My personal preference, as I've already stated, would be to have vitae up when randomly jumped, because it means I'm safe from them for 30 days and lose nearly nothing.

Nor am I arguing that vitae is "so useful" (when, well, most people know how useful it is ), I'm saying that lich isn't leaps and bounds greater than it.

It is.

Off Prime or in enemy territory, perhaps. But you've just been telling us that all the action occurs on Prime. So, would you care to refute my points comparing vitae to lich in Avenger-protected areas, or just another little two-word answer that contributes nothing?

I do apologize for saying drain was broken before, but you're a few cards short of a full deck if you think I don't know my own skills. . I was not the person who brought lichdom into this debate, I have always compared all of necromancy against all of sacraments. Those four skills you said I used to be bias, are the only four skills useful in the entire skillset. How about you use necromancy, or sacraments before you come here and call someone bias.


We been having a debate on which is better overall, so I decided to make a poll on this. I will list the best of each skillset and see which one you think is better

I will list the best of each skillset, and see which one you think is better. Right Terenas, I'm being bias!

How about you read my first post which lists about a debate, that I brought to the polls? I want you to name one person in this thread that has whined about their skills, when we have compared them to Sacraments and have proven our point.

You, Murphy. And no, you haven't proven any points except that 1) you think your skills suck, and 2) Murphy think his skills suck, going as far as saying Necromancy is the worst offensive skillset in the game. If that isn't being completely unbias, I don't know what is. We get it, you and him and how many Necromancers out there think your skillset suck.

Please look at how many people think Sacraments is better then Necromancy and even read Ekards post about how Sacraments is better then Necromancy. I pretty much proven this point by describing the skills, and you can compare them with ekards post about his skills. I also have proven my point by how many people have voted sacraments over Necromancy.

Nope, Stag has quite some nice skills in it.

This thread can be closed now, sacraments has proven to be better then Necromancy (Wins in the end)

You know what I find amusing about you Shiro? It is that you were one of the people complaining the most about how Trueheal sucks and Lich was far better than it when you were a Paladin. Heck, I still remember you defending tooth and nail the use of the Truemaker combo.

From what I have noticed, you seem to have this pattern of downplaying your own skills while overinflating the usefulness of other people's skills. I bet if you returned to the Paladins or became a Serenguard, you would then be on these boards talking about how Necromancy is light years better than Sacraments, Stag, or Moon.

Is that why I told Morik, that I would die less with Sacraments, then I would with Necromancy? Second, Stag and Moon have nothing to do with this thread so, please don't change the subject. This compares Sacraments to Necromancy, which everyone says Sacraments is better overall.

edit: I complained about lich before the drawbacks were in place, and I admit I was like everyone else. However, Lich and Trueheal are now equal in drawbacks and I don't see why you want to go into single skills, when it's the entire skillset i'm comparing

I'd take sacraments over necromancy. Shiro is completely wrong about lich (Excuse me, Mr. Ghost, while I run to drop a sigil in every adjacent room! Please don't run away), but even ignoring all the high abilities, sacraments just seems to have a wider array of handy things.

Hmm....
I wonder, do non-combatants, and pretty much everyone with the skill, decide that just maybe, their own game experience, might be say... less enjoyable, if their character could beat death, and reform themselves into an arguably 'more powerful' entity, and then choose not to, based on game mechanics, rather than their game experience, and strangely enough, roleplay.

My two cents, since I'm no longer here as much, just thought I'd bust one out for the RP'ers amongst us.

Aye, Nayl's right. If I was a ***** non-fighter (Which I am!) and had lich I would use it all the time for the pure badass undead factor.