Hmm, what if instead of individual Druids/Mages creating little temporary demesnes wherever they like... it was more of an expansion of territory style of thing?

Let's say that calling forest/flood/taint now takes a full month before the environment changes to the desired type, and it can only be done alongside an established demesne of the same type. So Serenwilde could start growing trails of forest outwards from its hub, and the same could be done with taint expanding from Magnagora, or watery streams from Celest, or wyrded forest from Glomdoring. For every room of forest that exists outside of Serenwilde territory, 2(?) power per month is drained from the nexus.

The benefit is that environment-limited spells and abilities start to have more meaning. Currently, forestals can flow anywhere there is a Druid, vine or blend anywhere they like. This way, there would actually be defined boundaries of forest within which they are more powerful, and out of which they are less.

Druids and mages would then retain many of their active abilities for their associated environments, along with the ability to call into being temporary environment demesnes like currently, but no melding. So a Druid can call ethereal forest into a room that might last a month, but they can't meld with it, or set up passive effects throughout an area. Also, only -some- of their abilities will work in temporary demesnes, as opposed to established organizational ones.

In exchange, Druidry and Elementalism would gain a new set of abilities that replace some of the existing demesne effects. It would be wonderful if this was quite different for mages as opposed to druids, so for instance mages might gain the ability to fashion elemental weapons, while druids might gain the ability to curse with various animorphic spells (muahaha). I don't know, I can't really think of what would compensate for the lessening of emphasis on personal demesnes... but I know our admin could come up with something.

Is it crazy?

Crazy? I dunno.

It would give insane bonuses to whoever manages to demesne a village. If you demesne from Serenwilde to Estelbar, you'll never lose Estelbar. That demesne will become permanent.

Sap and vines would make me cry every time I look at the AB files.

It might also create balance issues like we saw with the Sylvans in Achaea. Useful out of the grove, but you don't lose all those nice useful tricks when you step back in to the grove? That there's overpowered. I think the whole idea behind making demesnes like they are to get away from the traditional grove problem...and extend the same blessing to everyone, not just forestals.

Meh. Yeah, the more I pick at it, the more I think it would worsen the problem.

Hmm, a village revolt could simply remove all demesne from a village anyway (they go and burn down all the forest, clear up all the taint, fill in the streams). That's not so much a problem.

I don't know what you mean about Sylvans, and balance in and out of groves... could you explain that?

Sylvans were slightly below-average combat wise outside of groves. Only slightly, though. That seems to be what you're pushing for. Put them IN the grove and they pwn. Even as a bard (which is the only class that likes seeing enemy groves), they were insane to fight.

But how would this expanded terrain be removed?

Well, forestal Druids would be substandard utility-wise outside forest. They'd only have access to things like flow, vines, blending and so on while in the forest (and maybe a few more positive utility benefits). I wouldn't want them to be any more powerful than they are now, combat-wise.. in or out of forest.

Mages are different... they aren't as heavily linked to environment.

Um... good question. Maybe it requires a demesne from another org to take it over?

Hmm. Not sure.

Any suggestions??

Sylvans and druids in Achaea could implant their staff to move their demesne anywhere...

Back to Lusternia. I really like this idea; it would create some active, long-term warfare that has nothing to do with who is online at the time the conflict breaks out. It would get rid of 'demesne pollution' (Every single room in Lusternia has been Tainted, Wyrded, Flooded, or Forested). It would make Druid and Mage combat more fun and active. A few suggestions for replacement skills for Druids:

Cudgels would get an additional ability, FLAIL, which would act as a protection (No demesnes means we get to be tankier, hopefully.)

Druids would be capable of performing ritual sacrifice on a willing victim; the victim would die, but could be ressurected. The Druid would gain a random set of positive buffs relative to the victim's level.

Druids can summon berries that are both food and provide healing, but cost Power to summon;

An intermediate level attack, between Talisman and Cudgel: vines that cause damage, almost as much bleeding as cudgel, and entangle.

Summoning ents or treants to fight on their behalf.

Mages could construct golems (With Enchantment as well as Elementalism; Geomancers would be able to construct and enchant clay or stone golems, while Aquamancers would get kelp and coral golems.)

Mages also get to summon an elemental.

Those are pretty random, but it's all I can come up with.

EDIT: Other types of demesne can be removed, slowly, by casting other types of demesne, or by using a specific skill for demesne removal.

Oh, and the organizational demesnes wouldn't have to affect herbs, while the temporary ones might... but only for a month!

I wonder if it would be interesting to have druids and mages capable of breaking back opposing territory slowly (on the same scale it can be expanded), but with more quest-like driven mechanics? As in, to kill off established forest you might have to begin start burying fae-harmful stones in the earth. Or to start drying up streams from Celest you need to release a certain amount of special gases into the air in the room to magnify the sunlight, and you release these gases by cracking open certain hollow rocks.

And then each of the demesne classes can have different means of obtaining the rocks/stones/whatever, and tuning them against a certain type of environment.

Meh, just a completely random, un-thought-through idea.

Edit: And if you got the powercost right, it would limit how far an organization can expand... so its practically impossible for one org to dominate the whole landscape. Without draining their nexus to zero, that is.

Edit Edit: Ooo, and it actually gives a purpose to nexus power... you can either hoard your energy and remain insular and small, or try to spend your accumulated resources to build a real empire in which your people can dominate.

You could even start throwing in mini-games from a strategical point of view across the various governments: Shards of a shattered node could be scattered evenly throughout the Basin, and if you get an established demesne in the same location as one, you might gain a power/powercost bonus to your organization.

Sort of like an ongoing, less hectic, Wildnodes. And there are of course limitless other strategic games you could add in.

I vote no.

The ability to "hold" terrain in this case would be long term, which would be absolutely retarded.

Demesnes are fine. The problem is that they are just too damn big/difficult to break. One mage can hold a vast amount of territory. If that changes (along with the suggested demense summon by Geb and the wisp change by me), demesnes are going to be far less efffective than they have EVER been. Let's wait and see how that goes.

Just as a side note, I 110% dislike any idea that takes HUGE AND DRASTIC steps.

That's the f-ing problem with changes. The only way to ever achieve any sort of actual balance is to inch towards it with fine tuning. Nothing good will ever come from going from crazy to some equally crazy, but different. Different isn't the goal. Different also tends to create as many problems as it solves.

Baby steps. Baby steps. Baby steps.

I just don't think changing size/summoning is going to make demesnes any better for mages/druids.

Nor do I believe that silly patches and overly complicated restrictions and additional modifications are superior to simply addressing the underlying problems, and changing what doesn't work.

Also, just calm down. So you don't like the idea, ok, you're entitled to your opinion.

What is the problem? I think that's the start.

The problem is two fold:

1) A single person can control a vast amount of area (200+ rooms, currently).

2) Instantaneous summons make controlling vast amounts of area suicide for people trying to reclaim it.

Now, if mages/druids were restricted to say 20 rooms, they can still hold a large chunk of area. If summoning wasn't so damn impossible to avoid, other people could break it. I don't see how that's totally screwing over mages/druids (you still get to hold 20+ rooms that hit all yours enemies).

Furthermore, your suggestion doesn't fix anything. You have essentially created an entirely new system with brand new abilities. How can you possibly justify that such would be any where remotely better than the vast tweaks and tuning that has been ongoing with demesnes for over a year?

I can't justify that it will be any better. It was only a thought.

However, after a year of tweaks and tuning, most people still hate demesnes. I think that's a sign to start investigating alternatives.

I think that's inaccurate. For the most part, I think people hate the impacts that demesnes have on group combat situations. In these cases, the problems are pretty much as I identified.

The amount of people who "hate" demesnes as a mechanic are far less numerous so far as I can tell.

Alright, most mages/druids hate demesnes.

Where do you draw that sort of information? I count less than 10 mages/druids total who have responded on forums in the last week about demesnes.

Furthermore from what I've read, most people don't like the impact demesne have on group combat. However, there are some fairly specific reasons for this, primarily the summoning issue and the mass control issue.

Avaer, your idea is excellent, but I'm afraid I'm with Narsrim on this one. (though I do not believe that that forum thread was representative)

I think its a good idea, but maybe implemented as something else rather than as a replacement demesne. As much as I hate to say War System, with all its horrific implementations in IRE history, thats the sort of thing I mean a tangible control of an organization.