I think Estarra said no ents for druids....

But I like everything here a lot.
Maybe a new environment skill that dispells demesnes?

I disagree Narsrim.

Demesne's are NOT fine. They represent the most annoying aspect of group combat i've seen in any game, anywhere EVER. Most of the mages who are 1st and 2nd tier fighters (hence those who's opinions would matter more than the average joe "I-like-that-i'm-a-noob-and-can-still-affect-things-more-than-i-should" druid/mage)

The problem with demesne's are what you stated plus a few others. You belive the problem is instant summons and controlling a massive amount of territory.

The problem extends further than that. It allows a mage to take even a small, yet very important piece of territory (if geb's nerfed room rize demesne happens) and create a situation where their importance is elevated higher than another class.

The problem is, that in a group conflict the city without a mage is always going to lose.

Another MAJOR problem which could be fixed up and make demesnes a bit more bearable though, is to remove all hindering effects from demesnes that hinder movement. The major thing is, in a 20 or even 40 room demesne you can't chase anyone or fight them effectivley in a demesne, because you are always getting moved around, or prevented from moving.

IE geomancers stonerain- It slows people down far too much in the demesne
geomancer stun- protection scroll to avoid it

geomancers hunger attacks- while this doresn't slow you on the way through, it -does- hurt whole groups too and leads to very rapid passing out.

aquamancers deluge+needlerain, you have to swim each time you want to move because needlerain strips your waterwalk far too quickly.

aquamancer currents, it disrupts whole group movement through the demesne, and makes it very difficult to fight the mage.

Druid- briar walls, you have to do an eq move or writhe each time you move rooms.

Druid- treelife loses groups too, especially when combined with paralyse. Replace it with another useful, timed way to get people lifted into trees.

If these effects were removed, and the mages compensated with other types of skills for 1v1 and mobile combat, It would be an excellent step forward.


I also LOVE elryn's ideas of elemental weapons being able to be created by mages, I'd love to see a geomancer wielding a large stone mallet, or aquamancers wielding big icepicks. Pyromancers could have a big firery elemtnal sword and well druids can play with their animals or something, i live elryn's druid ideas.

There is so much potential for change, and originality.

I dont really have much to add other than an almost complete agreement with Murphy. Though I will throw in with Narsrim a bit and say that we want to more fine tune our current system until we get it right rather than jump back and forth. In my opinion this doesnt mean we only change 1 thing at a time but that we stick with the basics of our current skills modifying as we see problems. You never know if this idea is whats best for mages/druids then we will eventualy get there with the slower method. And Murphy love the sig.

Time like this I wished our Magi and Druids were more like DnD versions. I'd rather Magi being able to summon elementals to help them fight and Druids being able to shapeshift than them having such extended control over huge tracks of area.

Here we get to the crux of why you borderline supported this idea - the possible chance that you could get the single most broken (yes, its retardedly powerful) defensive skill in the game. It's better than a Shield of Absorbsion and doesn't cost any credits.

Not tanky as an Achaea Sylvan, mind you, but tankier. It is true that without demesnes, we'd have to be in the same room with the warriors to fight them, and that would hurt if we stay as capable of taking damage and wounding as we are now.

Even with demesnes, that is true.

What about totemic druids and mages who could cast shapeshift? *teases*

Demesnes aren't original? I mean seriously, why don't you just spit on the administration while you are at it?

Not only does EVERYONE hate demesnes now, but by god they are unoriginal.

Demesnes are original, they are a vast and very clever expansion of the Grove concept. Saying that something new could also be original doesn't necessarily imply the old version isn't.

And if you read the other demesne thread, by far the majority of druids and mages that responded seemed to indicate they didn't enjoy demesnes. That they would take something else if they had the opportunity.

It is an exceptionally clever and original idea, I don't think anyone has disputed that. It just doesn't seem to work out as well in practice as theory.

Edit: Also, cut the melodrama. Spitting on the admin? Thanks for putting words in his mouth for the rest of us.

Incidentally, as a Druid, I much preferred having a single Grove to a huge and more powerful demesne for one simple reason: it -meant- something other than tactical advantage.

If there was a way to minutely adjust demesnes so they had some sort of meaning to them, maybe I'd feel differently. What can you suggest?

The druid demesne is NOTHING... absolutely NOTHING to a grove.

Imagine: bees, grove golem, totem in grove, plus Grove itself.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When I was a druid, I used to do this: grove hinder, grove cage, grove summon, target hits totem (all pain runes), inc. It would instantly kill anyone. And I could do this over a 100 room span.

Hmm, I was a Druid a long time ago in Aetolia, but for some reason never had totems in there as well. That does sound like overkill.

Yes but in achaea I can effectivly never ever enter a forest if I dont want to, druids in an achaea forest were amazingly powerful but so what I never attacked a druid in his grove aside from an arena thats like attacking a priest in refuge and getting absolved instantly after the totem you just dont have to do it. Druid groves are the least mobile thing in the game and can be avoided forever in single or group combat. Also grove summon was avoidable with crash so even in the forest it wasnt a sure thing to be summoned.

Lusty druids can just pop their demense up anywhere they like so you cant really compare groves to a demensc as a demense is mobile and very usefull which means they become unavoidable in group combat.

If you walk around a forest in Achaea (Assuming Oakstone didn't enemy you!) you'll see lots of blankets, treehouses, and decorative thingies of that sort. Same goes for Imperian and Aetolia. The reason for that is the Groves were always more than a combat skill - they were homes, they had a RP meaning, they were interesting from more points of view than combat. Demesnes don't have that; it takes minutes to make one, and minutes to destroy one.

While you provide some superficial points, the context of applying Groves to Lusternia isn't considered. For example:

Aprox. 1/3 of Achaea is forest-terrain. Lusternia is far far far less. As a result if Groves were introduced, there would need to be major forest expansion. If you consider ever single Hartstone novice so far, it would easily cover every room in Serenwilde and Ethereal Serenwilde.

Lusternia unlike Achaea places huge emphasis on group combat. The idea of "I never have to enter the forest" would change a whole lot if there were forest-based villages (and there would have to be for the sake of fairness). Furthermore, raiding a Commune would be impossible.

Druid groves were far from immobile with portability. It required a quarterstaff, which could be summoned and saved in shops (so over a large period of time, you could amass lots of them). While not something you could expend indefinately, it was possible.

=====================================================

And as far as I'm concerned, it was not possible to avoid grove summon. First, any smart druid is going to start off with grove hinder and grove cage. Once they start summon and sense you crash (which throws you off balance), they grove displace (which switches locations with you and the grove owner), throw you into it (that is already active with a monolith sigil, icewalls, caged, totem, bees, grove golem), grove returns, and incinerates. Boom, dead.

Now, while this discussion on Achaea is fascinating for Achaeans, can you suggest any modifications to demesnes that give them meaning?

I have done so.

The two underlying issues with demesnes are that they provide too much control of a large area and the instanteous summons. These were both addressed in envoy reports, and I think will likely fix a great deal of concern. If the restrictions imposed are too great, they can always be tweaked to be slightly less.

Those suggestions were that demesne summon be blocked by a monolith sigil and have a 2 second delay; demesnes reduced in size (I'm not sure how reduced); and willowisp to fail if the terrain changes to a non-forest before the summoning completes.

As far as I'm concerned those are the problem areas... which I think is fairly accurate given that most threads tend to focus upon those three issues when stating "problems" with demesnes.

How do either of those make demesnes less transient tactical aides?

Edit: Maybe you're not understanding what I mean. Take fae, for instance. You want to defend them, a Moondancer feels that their fae are companions to be treated with respect... if they are harmed or disrespected, you take issue.

If ethereal forest is removed, we go... oh well. (When we notice, that is)

I know you aren't a fan of Achaean references, but I find this akin to someone asking how would you make vibes less transient tactial aides. The answer it quite simple: you don't, they were designed that way.

Furthermore, I find your example skewed. If I want to truly defend my Fae from all harm, I would make sure they are in a location where they highly guarded (such as Ethereal Serenwilde). If I could not do so, I would make sure I am there to guard/protect them.

That's not too different from demesnes. If it bothers you do much, you are capable of erecting an ethereal forest in a location you can either stay and protect or in a location where they are protected by other means (ie. totems/guards).