Barrier for Re-Entry

by Olan

Back to Common Grounds.

Olan2006-01-25 21:59:06
So, recently the Other Game I play was temporarily not working. I was bored. So I said to myself "Self! Why don't you go check out the Lusternia Forums? You haven't done that in a while!" I had been thinking fondly back on my memories of playing Lusty, because while my Other Game has many advantages, Lusternia has something I really miss: A world that reacts intelligently to character choices and things that change over time beyond merely opening new areas.

To be honest, a brief return to the forums wasn't exactly the sort of medicine likely to revive my interest in returning; many of the same issues and complaints are being discussed now as when I played, even though it has been probably 6 months since I last played (for more than 2 minutes). However, my memories are fond enough that I still at least pondered the idea of returning.

Then, I realized what an undertaking that really would be. If nothing else, the scary fact that my inventory is likely to contain a suit of fullplate, 3 pipes, and not a damn thing else. I never was flush with gold, and I think my credits are dry (and I can't really replace those from OOC). I've missed tons of history, news, events, new areas, new skills and changes to old ones that readjustment would be a serious undertaking.

Most of that really isn't the 'fault' of anyone, especially the administration. Certainly it would be amiss for me to praise the fact that Lusternia changes, leave of my own regard, then be upset upon return that it had changed. I don't think it is 100% 'acceptable loss' however. In particular, the fact that I'd have to replace almost everything I own in order to be in a position to do anything 'fun,' and potentially have to do that without the benefits that such equipment would require (hey, let's go kick spectres to death for gold so I can buy a sword!) seems to be a really bad system to encourage players to return. The idea of tackling this sort of replacement just to get to a stage where I could participate in the world effectively is a challenge that sounds boring, draining, and ultimately NOT FUN.

I realize, so just stow this response away somewhere, that the decay mechanism is required for 'proper' economic functionality (and I use proper VERY losely).

As a contrast, let me compare the Other Game. If I took time off from that and returned, every bit of my material possessions would be in the same place and shape they were in, AND I would have accumulated some amount of XP that I would earn at double rate for being 'well rested.' (caps at 1.5 levels worth)

Now, I certainly don't know all the details of IRE game customer flow. Nor do I know the player profiles and types that contribute most in $$ per return investment. It does seem to me, though, that player attrition rates could be somewhat alleviated by encouraging people to return instead of punishing them for having been away.

Let me say lastly that this really isn't a personal thing. This isn't the only barrier to my personal return. Furthermore, I feel pretty confident that the old 'Guard would give me a sword and health vial to get me back. Maybe that's what the model assumes, and I'm the rule not the exception. Maybe the assumption is that everyone would have someone they could get a loan or gift from to get back on their feet, replenish supplies and get back in the game. It seems to me that people would be more apt to return if something could be done to limit the 'damage' done to them by the intervening time, if not actually rewarding their return.

A solution I can see would be something like "Once a player is inactive for a period of one RL month, their items enter a suspended animation and decay at 1/2 or 1/10 or some other very reduced rate." Perhaps exceptions would be made for some items (like limited issue things or whatever) so people wouldn't just store them on alts for 2 years, bring them back and sell them.

Thoughts? Admin people? Do you just figure that old connections and latent addiction are enough to get players to return? Are we past the cost/benefit point of catering to?
Estarra2006-01-25 22:10:14
The reason items decay is because endless amounts of items cause what is called 'database bloat' and could potentially crash the game.

That's why very very few items don't decay.

I'm not sure what to say except its probably smart if you know you are going inactive for a long or unknown period of time that you sell as much of everything you own so when you do return you have a large gold cache to somewhat rebuild your stocks.
Richter2006-01-25 22:16:24
I hadn't really thought about this before, and you're quite right. I enter Aetolia and find out that I have -nothing-. I go back to Ragnarok and find I have -everything- (some of those items I worked very hard to get, costing 100,00 gold, so I was pleased I got to keep them).

Good idea, not sure if they'd implement anything like that though...
Daganev2006-01-25 22:23:14
I wonder if some sort of locker system would work.. The main problem is the amount of space they take up on the server, but if you were able to 'store' your items so that all thats saved on the server is the list of items you had and it was 'zipped' somehow, that might be worth it.
Olan2006-01-25 22:24:54
Perhaps I wasn't really clear, Estarra, for which I apologize. I never meant to return. I hadn't exactly said 'I'm never coming back' but I didn't consider it a temporary hiatus either. That being said, your game and your company has qualities that, even 6 months since I played, are good enough to bring me back here to at least say this: From where I sit, there's a high barrier to re-entry, which doesn't seem like the way you want potentially returning players to feel. Database bloat is bad. Game crashing is bad. Had I planned a return, selling my stuff would have been a good idea. That being said, it doesn't really address the issue. At best, it addresses my proposed solution. Ok, you're right. That's a bad solution. It leads to server crashes. Lack of solutions doesn't imply lack of problems.

Maybe it is just a problem of scale. I see this as a big wall, but you don't see the people on the other side of that wall as a large enough customer base to worry about. That's fine. Like I said, I don't know the stats.
Arix2006-01-25 22:25:40
what is your "Other game"?
Richter2006-01-25 22:28:14
This doesn't help now, but weapons don't decay in weapon racks, and clothing decays at half rate in a... closet, was it? *shrug*

Edit: And if you're thinking about coming back, I might help you get restarted, I gave about 30k to Aris for new supplies. Of course, then he didn't log back in. sad.gif
Olan2006-01-25 22:29:03
I don't name the other game intentionally. I'm not advertising for it (in fact, as I implied I'm pretty unhappy at the 'static' level of its content over time), but I didn't want people under the mistaken impression that I had a life, and I wanted to use that game's method of encouraging returns as an example.
Narsrim2006-01-25 22:34:51
Perhaps if you are going to leave, give all your stuff to someone with a stockroom?
Daganev2006-01-25 22:41:52
Often if you 'decide' to leave, you will be back in a short time, and its not worth selling all your stuff really quickly.

Everytime I've left a game it has been a gradual thing untill I suddenly realize I havn't played in 3 months. and then you come back and see everything decayed, and think to yourself its not worth the time to 'get back into it'...

I think he has a good point. I'd probabbly have logged into Aetolia or Imperian and even Achaea once in a while if I knew I had some stuff actually waiting for me other than decay messages.
Olan2006-01-25 22:48:52
If everyone who ever leaves who might someday maybe return gives even just the important and expensive items to people with stockrooms, doesn't that contribute to the problem of excessive items? And how many times can that happen before too much shop space is taken up by things that may never be retrieved? How does that help someone who didn't plan on leaving but later considers coming back? What about people without good friends that own shops that would be willing to store a couple expensive items for them for a potentially undefined period of time?

Narsim, I think that is a great idea if you know you're coming back, or you can say "if you don't see me in x months" or if you communicate out of game. It requires a lot to set that up, however, and it isn't clear to me that this solution is accessible to most people. Had I thought it through, and realized few other games would, in fact, entertain me for the same amount of time as I'd played IRE games I might have done something like this.

Even if I had stored some things (it turns out, by the way, that my sword has not, in fact, decayed), I'd still be hurting for a variety of other things. Potion stockpiles alone are a pain to replace, especially if you no longer know a large portion of the playerbase (and conversely, they don't know you). At least, they WERE hard...I guess you have new inventions like kegs since I played, but I only know that because I read the forums. If I'd just thought "huh, maybe I should go back" I wouldn't have that information.

I don't really know what I'm expecting to hear, I guess. I see Sarapis reading *waves* I'm not saying I know how to run a business better than you guys. I'm sure this isn't the first time you've thought of this. I'm not asking for the sort of dry, distant, and insensitive sort of response that a corporation of unfeeling moneymongers would have on a whiteboard somewhere ("Is that Olan guy above the Average Contribution Level? Yes? Just say something to placate everyone else, he isn't likely to contribute more anyway.") I'm just surprised that a company this well run doesn't have something a little more...substantive? in the way of encouraging player return.

Please don't take that as an insult. In fact, there's something refreshing to be said for a policy like "Whatever, we'll run good games and people will play them because they are good games. They'll return because they are good games. We don't need gimmicks."

However, I'm sure I'm not the only person to reconsider returning because of all the work required to get back to a level where you can do anything fun.
Aiakon2006-01-25 23:18:49
I do know what you mean. It's what's happened to my character in Achaea. I have a backlog of in the region of 1000 messages, and I'm pathetically behind in the newsboards.. I considered going back recently.. then I thought.. Nah. Too much effort. I'd even forgotten what my skills were and how to use them - that, in fact was more of an inconvenience to me than wandering around naked and itemless.

In the end, I haven't bothered going back there because I'm having loads of fun here. If I didn't have here, I probably would have done. It honestly wouldn't take you long to get back onto your feet. See if you can get a guild or city loan... or rat and quest until you get enough money in to pay for provisions to kill aslarans/krokani or gorgogs/merians to sell to each other. Couple of hours.. over a couple of days.. it would be like nothing had changed.
Shayle2006-01-25 23:25:26
QUOTE(Aiakon @ Jan 25 2006, 06:18 PM)
It honestly wouldn't take you long to get back onto your feet....Couple of hours.. over a couple of days.. it would be like nothing had changed.
250324




He's right really. It never takes that long to get right back into the thick of things. The hardest thing is not the lack of possessions, it's the lack of connections--but talk to a few people, and you'd be surprised how fast you're sucked back in! laugh.gif
Rakor2006-01-26 00:14:42
I know exactly what you mean. It's depressing to come back to all those decay messages after a long break, and it's one of the main reasons I left Achaea for Lusternia. In fact, item decay is probably my biggest gripe with IRE games in general, right now. I know I would have to think hard about coming back if all I had left in my inventory were my weapons, pipes, armor, and a little bit of gold.

Regaining items that decayed isn't the only problem. He also missed events and news, which aren't so easily replaceable.

If you do intend to come back just let me or someone in the guild know, we can try to help you get back into things.
Shiri2006-01-26 00:30:42
I gave away all my stuff to people before I had to go, but I didn't think I'd be able to come back for ages so I didn't ask anyone to store stuff for me. So it was as if it'd all decayed.

When I came back, it was -depressing.- I ended up staying obviously, I'm a bit more dedicated to the game than Olan (and I don't mean to say that's a good or bad thing, just seems that way to me.) If I'd been less interested in my friends and such here I might not have stayed - it looked like it'd've taken me forever to get stuff back. (It was only about 3 months before I was completely money-less but fully re-equipped, but that's not how it looked. It looks harder than it is.)

Doubt anything can be done with it though. And yes, this has prevented me from getting back into Achaea as well, eh.
Unknown2006-01-26 01:28:34
I know what olan's going through, to some extent, I was less active over the holidays, came back and found out my vials had decayed, my clothing, and my greatrobes. My jewelry was about to decay and i was able to get a jeweler to melt it down and remake it so that was cool, but it's depressing to start over.

That said, I like the way lusternia handles items/quiting compaired to other Mud-type games.

I've been in others where you -had- to store something in an expencive locker or it all poofed when you quit out, and afterward you -had- to quit out in an inn, and inns were only in a few places across the land. the Inn being expencive and level based as well. I've been in various muds with various inflections on that idea, and did not care for any of them.

Then again, there are no "smob" items found here, and everything is from trade-skill people at varied fair ammounts dependant on the cost to make them.

I think perhaps the hardest hit by decaying in lusternia would be high-end forged items, proofed/enchanted up greatrobes, and high-end enchanted jewelry.

Lusternia's tradeskill system is very interesting, and decaying items promotes trade, if everyone got to a certain "cap" in items and didn't need anything else it would separate those most likely to need/use items from those needing to sell them to make money, and would hurt lusternia 'economy' as it were. So it seems there is more then one reason for the decay of items.
Terenas2006-01-26 01:38:35
Item decay utterly sucks, no question there. I left Achaea for over a year and obviously all of my equipments decayed, but what I miss the most are my 231 and 229 speed rapiers. Both of which are faster than level 3 artifact rapiers over there. One thing I had always wanted was a safe box option added to the banking system where you could store a small number of items for a fee to stop them from decaying. Each year it'll withdraw gold from your bank account and pay for the safe box automatically, similar to clan dues.
Unknown2006-01-26 01:44:10
QUOTE(terenas @ Jan 26 2006, 03:38 AM)
One thing I had always wanted was a safe box option added to the banking system where you could store a small number of items for a fee to stop them from decaying. Each year it'll withdraw gold from your bank account and pay for the safe box automatically, similar to clan dues.
250366


Interesting idea! Would require a fee for putting the items in there though, so you don't do it every time you log off.
Murphy2006-01-26 01:45:54
judging from his 'other game' description it looks to be world of warcraft.

The good things about WOW are that you don't lose any XP on death, and pvp death you lose nothing at all but a little time. Death to mobs you lose durablitity on your items but they can be repaired at a cost (which isn't too much)

The bad things are little to no RP (even on the rp servers) too many really bad names on non RP servers (serioulsy i've seen pwndjoo, hunteriffic, i'marogue, Gankyou and a host of other really horrible ones),
Your actions don't affect the game at all.

And the biggest downside to wow is that no matter how good i am, i cannot beat someone 15 or so levels above me. In lusternia i can beat any demigod or titan at lvl 70 if i'm skilled enough, which is why i love lusti so much.

I play both somewhat equally because WOW still has that fun factor and there is no overwhelming sense of loss if you die to guards.
Unknown2006-01-26 02:55:43
I basically made that return Olan.

No money, no vials, nothing but my staff.

I did NOT look forward to buying all the vials and gears again, but I did it in a day or two. Of mild bashing. It's a pain in the butt to motivate yourself to go bash for some gold, but once you get the ball rolling it's not that bad.