Yay me! Heh. I often die in pointless situations just so we can be sure that someone tried to defend . Silly, but meh.

Considering the juvenile trash being said to Zalana by several members of Celenwilde, I agree that the shouting is getting out of hand.

I think thats exactly the point nokraemon is making? First of all the raiders have little point to be there as well it cant be that much fun raiding an unresponsive place, and as you said in most cases its people who dont know much that will try to go and defend pointlessly, ending up in the novices and other people new to the game just getting trashed which ends up in no fun for bolth sides.

Hmm. I just had an -extremely- long post to make.. And then, worrying that I might lose it, I decided to save it in the clipboard. Selected it, attempted to press ctrl+c, and pressed function+c, thus losing the whole thing. Oooh well. I might say it better this time.

It seems to me that this potentially worthwhile thread is in danger of being derailed by specific instances and specific allegations. It might seem a potential hijack, given what could be drawn from Nokraenom's first post, but I think this thread would be far more useful if we all agreed that we've done underhand things to each other over the years, and we thought about good sportsmanship instead.

Good sportsmanship is, to me: when the 'players' in the game treat each other fairly. Over and above the petty grievances and squabbles of our characters, we are all people who come to Lusternia to play for fun. Aiakon has plenty of grievances against many different specific players in the basin, but -I- hold no ill-will towards anyone. Obviously, I want Aiakon's in game aims and targets to be fulfilled, but I -really- don't want to upset anyone OOCly as I do it. That superceeds anything I might do with my character. On an OOC clan recently, another player swore at me in a manner he clearly thought was appropriate because my character was from an opposing side. That behaviour baffles me.. if the views and prejudices of your character are so embedded in your personality that you continue to hold them out of context, then you are clearly spending too much time in game, and your sense of reality is being warped. Friendly taking the piss between two teams in some sporting event is fair enough.. but when mutual antipathy gets to the point that you to try to kill each other, fair play has been forgotten, and Good sportsmanship has been cast to the winds. It is sort of antipathy which we must scrupulously fight against to keep Lusternia fun. When Shamarah gusted Kaervas out of the barrier-ed room at the Fulcrux (a fight and event, which like Narsrim I thoroughly enjoyed regardless of experience loss), his character presumably did so to push the balance of the combat back to his side. I presume his player though, remembering how unpleasant it was for Kaervas to lose demi-god, had consideration for Kaervas's player. I have seen similar courtesy from Shorlen, and from a very select few others. -THIS- is the sort of play we need... and if we all played like this, we'd all have so much more fun.

I very much agree. That's one thing that has amazed me about these forums; it seems like the players are as divided along Tainted lines as the characters are (generally speaking, anyway, of course there are exceptions). There is tremendous importance in keeping the in-character and out-of-character separate --- and not just in language like "levels" and such. It runs much deeper than that.

So... yes. Agreed.

It amuses me that this topic is brought up after aggressions against Magnagora in game. Heh.

Once the in game hatred dies down, you'll see more good 'sportsmanship.'

Hey, I'm not so bad though. Shiro lost a weapon during one of his Water cruisings and I returned it. Good stats too.

Actually, aggressions against Magnagora? No. Against Raezon. Raezon != Magnagora.

Again, noone's saying we haven't done it also. Yet, I hardly think it's an informed position to claim it -is- fair at the moment, as thinks are far, far more in Celest/Serenwilde's favour. Perhaps if there were less people involved. Perhaps if you didn't kill extremely low levelled people simply for being there. It's the little things to are the problem. Not the fact it's happening at all.

So many people in the game are -leaving-. And leaving -permanantly- because of situations like this. Magnagora, at least, can't afford to lose more people. We're already severely outnumbered.

Remember also, this is from the point of view of those people who are -not- top tier fighters. If I could stop Magnagora doing the same thing to give us all a chance to recoup and focus on regaining the faultering playerbase of Lusternia, I would.

The reasons why it was brought up hardly make this discussion any the less important.

Nymerya- To me, Raezon's ties to Mag and his citizenship there make him a part of it. You can't seperate it. I don't know of any Celestians or Serens that are allowed to join his order.

And also, stroll down the list of threads in the Idiots sections. Many players threaten to quit due to actions in-game that push them over the edge. On each side.

Rakor stated that some young, low-levelled fighters enjoy it as a learning experience. We don't target novices just for being somewhere. If they're up there defending, they will die. You're the guild/city officials for Mag. If you don't want your novices defending, bar them from doing so.

In SW, most mid-bies and newbies are utterly dying to assist. They like knowing what's going on and the loss is minimal at their levels, if they end up having to pray.

I'll nerf Nymerya and remind you of that public post I made not so long ago, inviting anyone to join a Raezonite clan. There have been many non-Magnagoran, Celestian AND Serenwilde Raezonites over the years.

And I'm not telling you their names.

And stop hijacking my hijack.

Actually, Serenwilde and Celest -are- allowed to join. At least from our side of things. Raezon is the same as Lacostian or Elcyrion. Neutral. Always has been. If you're using this as a way to attack Magnagora, you're not doing very much at all in that respect...

And uhh... what does it matter if people from both sides leave? That doesn't make it any less saddening. -Lusternia- cannot keep losing people at this rate.

And SW, yes, lovely. I'm happy they like dying. As I've said before, SW outbumbers the other communities almost 2 to 1. Vaster numbers means more support.

Raezon supports the taint. If there are any SW/Celestian members there, it's secret and no one would know. As far as I'm concerned, Raezon=Magnagora. Who cares?

And god, don't go dramatic on me, Nymerya. Lusternia is not dying out because you hate defending your shrines or Nil, when we raid. Did anyone care when the Celestians were packing it up due to the excessive amount of raids? Oh, what about the lovely killing of the Supernals over and over, for a power contest? And you have to -love- the eight hour raids Magdoring would take part in on Faethorn. Defiling Lisae shrines. Killing anyone they found there. They still do. The raids there only stopped because geos can no longer taint there. Else Kaervas would still be doing his daily thing on Ethereal. Daevos and his people jumping any Seren he'd find on Astral or anywhere else for the matter. Hell, Torak recently threatened to hunt an unranked Celestian for merely defending Celestia. Yeah, defending your area is a crime to most Mags. I could write a book on the crap Mag has done to the other organizations, but it'd take awhile. It's not what the Nymeryas, Aiakons, or Nokraenoms have done, but the Ethelons, Daevoses, Kaervases, Murphies, Toraks and other heavier hitters that love to start trouble.

I find the irony simply hilarious. And the hypocrisy.

I'm sorry... where did I take part in, or endorse any of those activities? I did not, and continue not to do so. I'm not saying 'Malicia, stop raiding'. I am saying 'People need to think more about what it's doing to the playerbase.

Again, I will say it simply. This. Is. Not. About. The. Shrines.

And, once again. Raezon does not support the Taint any more than another Divine. Just as people say Lacostian and Elcyrion don't fit in with their respective communities, nor does Raezon exactly fit with Magnagora.

This will be the last I post here, simply because this is likened to arguing with a brick wall. And the first time I have ever felt the need to ignore someone.

If people want to work towards quelling the fires between the tainted and non-tainted, it'd have to be addressed in game. I don't see how Lusternia is dying out and your saying it doesn't make it so. Sorry!

Malicia... is there any topic or issue in which you won't go for a spiteful bitchfest against Magnagorans?

And this didn't start out as something of a complaint against actions taken in game against a certain organization? No, most of the things I post on lately have been skills. Overpowered ones! *grins* Run a search.

But if it'll make you happy, I'll glady concede. Yes, we're destroying Lusternia.

I said this in another thread, a long time ago. I think it hurts the game for people to state that the playerbase is failing without hard numbers. You never know who reads these and could end up turned off by such comments. Nymerya has no idea. All of this has come up due to a few raids in the past recent weeks. Most of the time it's quiet and peaceful. Boring even. The divine have kept us busy with a series of events and so, I'm grateful.

Kashim. Read Nokraenom's post again. I'm merely responding to the issues at hand.

Nice to know you're in your usual bitter mood, here we are trying to have a decent discussion and as usual you do nothing but moan and bitch. If I'm somehow reading your posts wrong and you aren't using any attempt to complain about Magnagora then I apologise, just wish I knew what your problem was.

Anyway back to the people who are actually adding to this discussion, Aiakon said it all pretty much perfectly. Certain people are too busy bitching about what's happened in the past and all too willing to place blame on someone else to bother getting any sort of solution. I get along well with some people from all places in the game and if someone has a real grievance with how I play Kaervas, then they should bring it up to me in a civil tone through PM or messages in game (instead of bitching on the forums) and I'll sort out whatever the problem is.

I'm in a pretty good mood, actually.


Secondly, telling someone in a message or pm to be a better player isn't very impressive. Why not use some good old RP? If we wanted change, the leaders would get together and work something out. A universal truce. Unlikely, maybe, but it'd show people that we're all tired of it. Peace would become boring afterwhile though.

I didn't say anything about being a better player, no one has complained much about how I play Kaervas so it's more me inquiring to see if anyone actually bitches as much as you claim they do. I RP plenty, not that you'd see it being a Celestian and all.

Celestians are forbidden to join the divine order of Raezon, It's accually on my to do list to tune a statue against Fain, Raezon, Shikari and Viravain's orderclans as to find out who is in those from Celest,, but right now I focus on celest enemy statues. When we find an order member they are considered spies and will be kicked (like Karrah).

Raezon's believes are in conflict of those preached in Celest. And Celest considers Raezon a harmfull diety. This was proven by his order using a worldburn to defend Nil. You will notice Lacostian doesn't allow his order members to place shrines and worldburn for Celest on Celestia.You can't believe how many times we wished we could worldburn when Mag is standing on the island in the waterplane.

Raezon does support taint because Raezon's believe is knowledge/power at all costs even tapping into powers of the soulless. The taint belongs in that picture.

And now another interresting thing is open for making Raezon even more hated by Celest (again). As Terentia was a lieutenant against Fain and Raezon and since she is back this conflict might light up again in the sense of order wars.

And indeed Lacostian does not really fit in Celest's (current) RP, however he is not harmfull to it either, infact he helps Celest on some less spiritual fields.