What does any of what I said have to do with intolerance? What does any of what I said have to do with Israel? I have not once commented on the Israel situation. I have commented only on your failure as a forum moderator to not abuse your powers to your own personal gain. In this case, using them to attack others, twisting their words by putting words into their mouth.

Now you are initiating personal attacks against me, calling me intolerant. I have not said a single thing regarding Israel, or what I think of it. Can you please point out once where I have spoken with intolerance on these forums? I do not appreciate the offensive remark you have made towards me, and I do request an apology.

Just a piece of info I realized you most likely missing.

Weather your opinions are based off a cultural bias against Jewish things, or your opinions are based off the "soft racism of lowered expectations" its still biased and racist and not based off an equal treatment of facts and situations.

Unless ofcourse you beleive that whomever is willing to hurt the other group should be followed under all circumstances.

Again, that is an opinion, and your own personal, subjective definition of racism. It is clearly not Aiakon's. I demand once more - change the title of this thread. Aiakon did not start a thread called 'my racist opinions' - you starting a thread in his name with his account with such a title disgusts me.

............................
Wow...all I can say is wow...so much hatred...
I can clearly see why Hamas is pissed with Israel.
I can see why Israel is mad at Palastine.
This is not a war about logic or factual knowledge, it is a war over identity. In such a war there is no middle ground.

And Daganev... I thought it was ok that he says what he feels, is that not what your country prides itself on to the entire world, this "being free in theory" concept? How is it you can think one way but not concede to him the right to think differently...I am confused...please explain to me...
love-mimi

This will, I think be my last post on this point.

Daganev, I would like you to imagine yourself as me. I live a long way away from Palestine and Israel. The problems there -very- rarely have any bearing on my life. As far as I am concerned the terms the Israel-problem or the Palestine-problem are interchangeable. They are not intended as derogatory to either country. They do not implicitly lay blame on either country, and nor did I intend them to. You have mistakenly become offended. Rather than lay the blame on the glib manner in which I usually speak on this forum, you decided that I was a racist. Rather than assume that what appeared to be an offensive suggestion might have been made out of sheer ignorance, you decided that I was a racist. Rather than ponder the subtleties of language... where NO word has any one meaning, and a cloud of polyvalency surrounds every seeming exactitude, you decided to that I was a racist. Though you no doubt have had textual misunderstandings in the past (have we not all experienced this? after all you can read writing, but you can have no idea of my tone or inflection or facial expression..), you decided that this was not one, but that I was a racist. It seems to me that you came too hastily to your judgement.



This is the unfortunate result of the way in which this thread has been moderated.

Simimi, I am not a racist. I am not an anti-semite (many of my closest friends are jews). I am not anti-Israel. Daganev has misunderstood me. Nor do I need the rights of free-speech to defend the expression of views which I do not hold.

I see nothing you have posted to be anti- anyone but rather factual in the sense it has been proven true..
To me it seems some of Daganev's argument is not really a "Fact" but more of a "Fact in theory" such as that it applies as a fact only to himself... an exmaple would be ..
to -ME-, it is a FACT that Bhudda gained enlightenement in the year 0 B.E on which our calander is based (as this is the year 2550 B.E) but to someone else that is utter nonsense...
I think like some of Daganev;s statements fall under this catagory things that to him are completly factual but to others are subject to the scrutiny of time.
I openly profess to hate the Burmese, do I hate them all, NO, OFCOURSE NOT! but do I avoid one when walking down the street... Yep, thats what centuries of war will do to your mind... it makes you crazy and paranoid...
love-mimi

This thread should never have been created in the first place, but it's at this point really out of hand.

Having followed, and now re-read both this thread and the original, I can confidently state that I can see no example of Aiakon professing racist or anti-Semitic beliefs or viewpoints. He has merely criticised the statements Daganev has made in a very logical way, and expressed a different (and no less valid) perspective. This thread should really be deleted by an administrator.

Hrm, just to clarify on my own comment regarding the racist nightmare earlier in this mishap of moderation: it was not directed at Aiakon, as I never saw any of his comments as being racist.

Firstly, Shorlen... I do not remember calling anybody a racist, I said racist-theories..

Second, I started the thread, I then moved the relevant posts over to the thread.. I don't know what makes you think I somehow "made aikon" start a thread. I clearly stated that I started the thread... Not sure what your beef is about.

Simmi, I don't understand how you can say that using the word "arbitarary" is fact, and yet when I describe to you the process that happened, proven by historical documents on all sides, that is now "Fact in theory."

My family was killed over the phrase "Jewish problem".. my friends are currently driving around in bullet proof buses because of the "Israel problem" as Arabs and Muslims all over the world love to announce as loudly as possible...

I'm not sure how I could avoid being offended when you use phrases that people who activly attempt to kill people just like me use it as their main point of argument.

Show me what I said that is not fact. You are comparing people who started a war with the intent of genocide to people who are trying to keep themselves alive and saying "Its a diplomatic missunderstanding"... How could I NOT be insulted?

How many nations of the world have you seen create seperate places so that Jews who have lived there for centuries could have thier own government? The answer? 0 And yet, the one Jewish state in the world, has given land to other people THREE times now, so that they could live in peace... the result? More deaths of Jews and the complete twisting of History.

This is not an issue about hating people, this is an issue of hating the complete disregard for facts. I don't hate muslims, I don't even hate muslim countries.. however I do hate the ACT of killing people for no reason, the ACT of Declaring that my people have no right to existance, and then the ACT of other people saying that its my fault for wanting to exist... well excuse me!




Just to make sure I understand you prooperlly... There is no problem with saying "rich jews"- who were infact not- rich. There is no problem with saying "The Israel Problem" when discussing, I don't even know how that came up... There is no problem with stating that the creation of the state of israel wasn't "satisfactory".. there is no problem with saying that the person who is attacked for thier desire to exist "wasn't diplomatic enough"

These are all valid things to say about people?

And yet the forums goes up in a uproar if someone mentions the word 'gay'...

You called the creation of the only safe place for me in the world as "Ludicrous".. and I'm not suppose to get upset?

I think what most people were arguing about was your abuse of mod powers to change the subtitle.

At least, that's what I gather happened from the rest of the thread.

This is the post I made that started the thread... Look at timestamps people!

I did not use my moderator abilities to do anything other than Move posts from one thread to another...

Re read the first post, hopefully that will make you people stop whining and acussing me of things I never did!

But who cares about accuracey right? as long as it sounds good!

See when you say "Who cares about accuracy, aslong as it sounds good!" to me that reads as being very sarcastic.
and Daganev, if you would read a bite more into my posts I asked you to explain your issue/pov to me, as I do not understand what you are on about. I'm sorry if you somehow felt I was questioning your cognitive ability to repoduce knowledge in the form of a fact, rather I was simply curious as to where you were coming from hun.
-love mimi

Instigating an attack, even a poorly veiled one (such as the subtitle of this thread WAS called paired with the posts selected to be transfered over) is not permitted - moderator, or no.

You all have a single post following Mine to get back into a peaceful discussion, or I will be locking this, and the previous thread tied to this one as well.

Discussions are for adults only, not little children. Stop acting like children and you'll get to discuss the matter to your hearts content.

So Dags...
Explain please? ;
love-mimi

I feel like digging out my texts and papers I wrote about this stuff in highschool. We studied it fairly intensly for a year and it's clear that neither side is free from blame, they are both guilty of 'terrorism', government sponsored or not.

Simmi, I don't know where to begin....

There is currently an "academic theory" which was introduced by the PLO in the 1970s that Israel was created as part of the Western Colinization of the Middle East yet was disguised by the Jews to mask itself as an ancient homeland. Somehow, the Jews who were kicked out of every country in Europe, not allowed to immigrate to America, and systematically killed were all plotting to 'use Israel' to colonize the Middle East.

Somehow, the fight that early Israelis had against the British Government, resulted in "rich Jews" from Europe building Israel with the British dividing up the middle east into as many warring arab factions as possible all put together, so that they would not be able to coorperate to expel the "Western Colonists."


However, What I just wrote is so far from the Truth its hard to know where to begin.

Starting in 1850, Theodore Hertzl began political campaigns to move Jews back to Israel. This was because he witnessed a French Jewish Soldier get blamed for treason because he was Jewish, even though it was clear that he never did anything wrong. Staring in 1850, jews began to move to the Ottoman Territory of Palastine which is Israel building up small communities where there was currently nobody living. You can read quotes by Mark Twain who wonders why the Crusades happened over such a desolate piece of land. Nobody was living there.

As the settlements grew, the Rothchild family from England began helping purchase more land so that Jews could defend themselves from often maurading groups of thieves, and so they built walls around town and began building roads between Jewish settlements. Eventually, the land of Israel was pretty much rebuilt and many of the swamps drained, at which point the Jews started working with the Ottoman government for protection from Arab neighbors.

This sparked the Ottoman Empire to start funding raids against Jewish settlements, and so Jews began seeking more independance fighting. When WWI broke out, the Jews helped the british remove the Ottomans, eventually the British also did not want the Jews declaring independance and so Jews and the Brittish fought.

This situation has been true since the time of the Bar Chova rebellion against the Romans up untill every conquring nation since then. Often times, if the Occupieing Nation did not treat Jews too badly, there was no desire for independance, especially since the Religious communities and Rabbis said that there will not be another state of Israel untill after the Messiah comes.

Something to be aware of is that the Ottoman empire, which was destroyed in 1917/1918 purposefully placed warring factions of Islam and Arabs within close proximity of eachother so that they could maintain thier empire for those hundreds of years.

By 1947, the world apparently felt pitty for Jews, since nobody wanted to take them in during WWII and voted on granting Jews Independance. The Jewish milita groups had been fighting with the British for some time, and so they had no real desire to stay, however at the same time, Arabs were constnatly destroying Jewish settlements. The British, fearing that if they left they would leave a huge civil war behind them (like what people keep saying if America leaves Iraq) decided that the only way they could leave the area would be if they declared a British Mandate which sepperated what was a combined "Trans Jordan" area into two seperate countries, Israel and Jordan. The "nuetral" Saudi government was suppose to help negotiate this deal with the British, however they rejected every proposal brought to them, insisting that Nobody but an Islamic government could take control of that land.

The British therefore split up the country in such a way that every area with Jewish settlements would be Israel (around 20% of the land) and everywhere else would be Jordan. The day that Israel was voted in by the UN as being an internationally recognized country atleast four arab nations, Egypt, Lebbanon, Syria, and Jordan, attacked Israel, however Instead of destroying Israel, Israel ended up defending itself as well as taking additional land. Since then the problem has really only gotten worse.

And thats just the beggining... I'm not sure what is Ludicrous, or undiplomatic about the whole thing. Records and photographs show that up untill 1930 there was hardly an Arab village anywhere within the borders of Israel. Ofcourse as Jews started to expand, Arabs started to expand as well and began fighting over the new tilled fields.

As wars were fought against Israel, eventually, in 1967 Israel won a large chunk of land, and then gave back an even larger chunk of land to Egypt in order to have peace. However, that peace was not good enough for groups such as the PLO and Hammas, and so Arafat started the PLO in 1963 to remove Israel off the face of the Map. Later in the 90's they claimed that they just wanted to have the land that was lost in 1967 and be peacefull, but we can all see how that turned out.

I'm sure that doesn't make a whole lot of sense since I wrote many of those paragraphs out of order and the like, and there are lots of details I left out because I don't feel like boring you to death.

From the Arab point of view, Israel was 80% empty of any groups of people from 1,000 till about 1850. Arabas lived in Jeruselem as did Armenians, and Christains and Jews, and there were a few people in in the couple of cities like the B'hai and the Druze, and the Bedoins. Around 1920-30 there was a push by Jordan to keep all the 'palastians' in camps and sepereat from society and they forced many of them to move into Israel to fight the "growing Jewish threat", not to mention all the deals they made with the Nazis. Then in the early 1960s when it become popular for people to go to thier 'roots' the PLO terrorist organization formed to get Israel off the map, and a few years later Hamas, and Hezbolah. Hamas funded by Iran, and Hezbolah funded by Syria, with the PLO being funded by Jordan.




I'm glad to know that the sensitivies of every group but mine are respected...

Here are the top few links on google that discuss "the israel problem"

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Area=sd&ID=SP32502
http://www.unol.org/pospapers/ppegypt.html
http://focusonjerusalem.com/ifisraelwerewipedout.html
http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6166

Each of these links talk about "The Israel Problem" with either the idea of destroying Israel, or saying that Israel has no rightfull claim.

Even the ones that seem to be "balanced and objective" leave out VERY important facts. Such as, Israel is composed not of just Jews and Palestians, but also , Druze, B'hai, Chritsains, Bedoins, and Israeli Arabs. Israel may treat "Palestians" poorly, but they do NOT treat all Non-Jews poorly, and they don't even treat all Muslims poorly. Palestians however, are typically NOT Israeli Citizens.

Guess what, Every country treats thier non-citizens poorly.. thats what happens when your not a citizen and don't pay taxes.


Here is the google results for "Rich Jews"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22rich+jews%22

All anti-semetic, or generally supportive of some kind of "world JEwish Conspiracy"...

These are buzz words used by Anti-semites all over the world, and I'm pretty insulted that not only are these not appologized for, but I'm called "childish" for being upset about it.

Oh please, don't even start with that 'If You don't agree with me then You're a racist' crap.

Your groups 'sensitivities' are respected to the same degree as anyone elses, which is exactly why you were scolded for your actions on this forum. You get to say your piece in a FAIR manner that isn't attacking others for their own opinions, same as everyone else.

If you can't do this and follow forums rules, then you don't get to say anything. It's that simple.

It HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH AGREEING WITH ME.... Its the words... RICH JEWS and THE ISRAEL PROBLEM That offend me... How many times do I have to say that?

Can't say the word gay, but you can say "bunch of rich jews" and "the israel problme" and nobody bats an eyelash...

I use to tell my friends they were being silly and paranoid when they told me that there is still a large double standard against anything Jewish, even on the Internet.. but I'm wondering if I've been the naive one...

You were told to behave or face the consequences, and because of it, you rose a complaint of alleged persecution against your groups 'sensitivities'. You said, I quote, "I'm glad to know that the sensitivies of every group but mine are respected..."

I fail to see how My posts on this thread have any disrespect behind them concerning the matter of Israel or 'your group', which you have very clearly insinuated that I have by posting those words under a quote of Myself telling you, and other forums members to behave or face the consequences.

I consider that very insulting, and much more importantly, irritating. Does the fact that I have never said the words 'rich jews' or the 'israel problem' mean anything to you, especially considering your accusation against myself? I'm very sure I haven't said a thing on the matter at all, in fact - so, please do enlighten myself on what you meant by your statement.